San Francisco considers banning the sale and manufacture of nicotine e-cigarettes


I’m not optimistic about this effort’s odds; but, in principle, I can see a solid argument for trying to relegate e-cigs to “uncool nicotine delivery system” and discourage the vendors pushing versions designed to be cool and appealing.

For nicotine addicts, all but the nastiest disasters in apathetic or incompetent fluid formulation seem to be clearly better for you than cigarettes; and much more viable than ‘just stop being a nicotine addict’.

However, the clear harm reduction value to existing cigarette users in no way implies that it’s desireable to have companies moving to make them a substitute for dwindling cigarette sales by positioning them as something to take up(which Juul and friends fairly clearly are; even if we believe their somewhat unconvincing assurances that they are only doing so to adults, rather than children).

As noted, not seeing a municipal measure doing that, even slightly; but in principle relegating e-cigs to the status of utilitarian drug delivery system for the benefit of existing users of more dangerous ones; but of minimal interest to non-users would send like a win.

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God damn. That guy is cool.


Nicotine is a poison. Until it was banned by the EPA in 2014, it was commonly used as a pesticide:


Ingest enough of it and it will kill you (yes, I know, ingest enough of anything… dihydrogen monoxide, and so forth):

It has many deleterious effects on the body as detailed in this article posted by @docosc the last time this topic came up.

Nicotine is well known to have serious systemic side effects in addition to being highly addictive. It adversely affects the heart, reproductive system, lung, kidney etc. Many studies have consistently demonstrated its carcinogenic potential. [Table 1].


It’s good that you quit, I hope you can stay quit. I quit smoking in 1995 and I still find myself occasionally craving a cigarette.

I was agnostic on vaping until a couple weeks ago, when I took my family to see Star Wars: A New Hope with an orchestra performing the score live. There were so many people vaping marijuana in the audience that we had to leave the venue. I’m an enthusiastic supporter of legalization and I still found it fucking obnoxious.

ETA: And get off my lawn, you kids!


That isn’t a good argument. Everything is poisonous in the right quantities, even water. Fluoride is a toxin, yet in low enough quantities it helps keep our teeth not full of holes.

Assholes ruin everything. I’d be pissed.


I saw that as a presentation of fact, not as an argument. To quote myself:

I don’t take the position that people should be denied the opportunity to poison themselves, more that they should have accurate information before they do, and that it would be nice if they would have the courtesy to include me out.

They do, and I was.


Technical Boy? He’s really not, though.


Nicotine is also part of the risk of smoking on your cardiovascular system, and on its own increases the risk of heart attack and especially stroke. That was always he worst health risk above cancer with smoking, but because it could also be other things it got sidelined in the anti-smoking message.


And banning the same and marketing without banning use is the best way to handle eliminating something’s use because it criminalizes the distribution and not the use. Since there isn’t a “X ounces of vape and you are officially a dealer” clause it is fine.


@themadpoet Covered the points well enough, but I’ll clarify my thoughts a bit further since you directed your comment to me.

I would say it’s bad for you in the same general (not specific; I don’t know if it attacks your liver) way that alcohol is bad for you. It’s an addictive substance, and a certain percentage of people are more prone to addiction than others. In excess, it can harm you; but so can water and air. How much it can harm you is for the professionals to figure out.

My opinion is “pick your poison, and godspeed.”

How many chemicals go into vape juice? I’m not able to find an agreed upon amount, but I’m guessing the answer is, “as many as it takes to make all those different flavors.”

Burn the smoke? I think you meant to say “inhale.” And I covered my take on that earlier.

I should have said “ingredients” rather than “particulates”. When I last bothered to look into it, I found that there’s little regulation or oversight on what goes into vape juice. You trust the makers to not put something in it that will be harmful to you, but without a chemical breakdown you really have no idea.

A non-native substance introduced to your body’s chemistry. I agree wholeheartedly with @themadpoet on this. What, if anything else, did you think I meant by it in that context?

No shit. But knowing what substances you are introducing to your body helps you make a (hopefully) informed decision about whether you want to be doing it. Unknown substances removes that ability from the consumer and puts trust in the hands of the corporations that make the product. You might trust them; I don’t.

I don’t even know what the fuck you mean by that. Please clarify.

Also, I don’t know why you chose to focus only on the last sentence of what I wrote.

I agree.


Haha - that’s what I get for skimming too fast.

Did you get your money back? I know it isn’t smoke and I know it isn’t the same as smoking, but in a world where I am no longer desensitized to smoking, why would anyone think vaping isn’t obnoxious to anyone else around them. I mean, I move to a corner if I feel a big fart coming.


I need to get in the habit of including that /s tag. And also need to watch that show. That was the first Neil Gaiman book I read, I hope they’ve done good by it.

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First season wasn’t bad, the second one just started.


I used vaping to help me stop smoking after 20 odd years. I’ve now stopped all nicotine use a couple of years after. I appreciated anecdotes aren’t data - but still. Banning sales of e-cigarettes without banning real cigarettes is nuts.


You know, it didn’t even occur to me. Mrs. Faffenreffer’s asthma was kicking in and we had left her inhaler in the car; I was entirely focused on getting out of there. The outing was pretty much a dog’s breakfast, though what we saw of the performance was great.


apparatuses is the English plural and apparatus is the Latin plural. The OED also lists apparatus as an English plural along with apparatuses.

Walton said … “we don’t want them in our city.”

Who exactly is “we”? Has there been a referendum? Or perhaps this is a personal crusade by someone looking to get votes with a stunt law instead of an attempt to enforce the will of the people.

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This doesn’t seem like the proper response, but everyone should be concerned that after years of falling smoking rates (vaping/traditional cigs/etc… are all forms of smoking) we have an uptick among the younger population. This new invention designed to help lessen the horrors of smoking might end up causing more deaths than it prevents. Also for anyone who has smoked (I am among them) and quit, or tried to quit they know the total hell of it and would wish to protect others from having to go through it.

So yeah, this is far from the solution and I don’t see it passing. But let’s not underestimate the damage vaping is causing. Besides this might get Juul out of his city and if I was in his position I wouldn’t want them using my city as a test lab either.


i’m no fan of smoking, vape or otherwise… it’s not good to put burnt stuff into your delicate lungs
Spend money to ban mfg, sales… uhhh…

However - SF? … the SF that takes hardworking taxpayer’s money - to build spaces for people who want to inject deadly poison into their veins… and have med staff on hand to bring 'em back if they off themselves???

yes, thats awesome! buying textbooks for kids?? furthering education? improving infrastructure… ooops, nope, i was wrong - making space for people trying to kill themselves…

I feel maybe the city politicos may want to focus on … well, whatever - i don’t know, - i kinda gave up on SF about 15 yrs ago.


And some fine day in the near future, cops will beat to death or shoot someone who is selling vapes on a street corner. No one will ask “Exactly why the fuck is this a ‘crime’ anyway?”

EDITED to add:

Won’t work by itself. Might work if these were accompanied by “safe boosting stuff out of cars sites” and “safe screaming at the demons that haunt your waking hours sites”


Actually the Swiss route of treating heroin addiction with the position of “harm reduction” has decreased the number of heroin users, decreased heroin deaths, and eliminated it among users who are part of the gov program that provides heroin and a place to use it.

The US method of shaming and locking people up hasn’t been nearly as successful.


I am not from San Fran - so I might be ignorant of this fact, and if so please forgive me. Is it legal to sell or market to children there? The last time I checked - selling vape products to kids is banned everywhere (I mean legislature everywhere pretty much fell over themselves to do this). Considering it’s already illegal for these kids to get the stuff - making it illegal to sell to adults didn’t change the calculus here.

I mean - I’m old, but getting a joint, LSD, or much harder crap in high school was easier than it is as an adult in my personal experience.

It’s a symbolic gesture that makes someone ‘feel’ good - but doesn’t actually help reduce the use of the products - you want to make vape use go down in teens? Regulate the damn devices so that they don’t produce ‘clouds’ - it’s entirely possible to vape with almost no ‘cloud’ (I know this due to personal experience). It’s also possible to fiddle with your device to make huge ‘makes a dragon cry with envy’ clouds - kill that aspect and you’d suck the life out of the youth vape movement - instead all I see are attempts to stomp the entire thing into the ground.

I quit through a vape - I personally know 3 others who have - that’s 4 people I personally know (myself included) more than I’ve ever known who quit with gum and or pills. One of the people on my list had LSD type hallucinations trying the pills - vape worked though. I can’t prove it - funny how all the studies done focus on harm from vape and we have very little that shows if it helps you quit one way or another - like the money isn’t being spent to see if it’s actually useful. You might ask yourself where the money for the vape studies has come from - and then ask yourself if the same companies that lied to the public for years about the safety of cigarettes - are more trustworthy these days when it comes to fighting against a product that is literally killing their business.

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Those Swiss … also paying for education and infrastructure … damnit