men’s rights advocate/activist
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I ask a question, and this you have a problem with?
OIC, thanks
I see that discussions about that has been moved to a separate thread.
I dont have a dog in this particular fight, as a matter of fact I was unaware that there was such a thing as an MRA.
So with that, I bow out. Im sure you guys will miss me.
After some thought, I’m going to post this comment here as well as in the original thread, because it’s germane to both.
Mental illness and its manifestations are not de-coupled from culture. The way mental illness manifests is heavily INFLUENCED by culture.
Some cultural differences are also apparent in the kind of delusions that occur in schizophrenia patients. Often, the delusions tend to reflect the predominant themes and values of a person’s culture. For example, in Ireland, where religious piety is highly valued, patients with schizophrenia often have delusions of sainthood. In industrially advanced countries like America, patients’ delusions tend to focus on sinister uses of technology and surveillance. Patients may report that they are being spied on by their televisions or that they are being X-rayed when they walk down the street. In Japan, a country that prizes honor and social conformity, delusions often revolve around slander or the fear of being humiliated publicly. In Nigeria, where mental illness is believed to be caused by evil spirits, delusions may take the form of witches or ancestral ghosts. (Source: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/brain/episode3/cultures/)
“We know the manifestation of mental illness is affected by cultural factors,” Dr. Swartz said. “One’s cultural context does effect people’s thinking and particularly their delusions. It gives some content and shape to their delusions. While we don know whether there was a specific relationship between the political climate that he was exposed to and his thinking, it’s a reasonable line of inquiry to explore.” (Source: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/01/mental_illness_expert_we_shoul.html)
Whether mentally ill or not, this guy was a misogynist, plain and simple. He stewed in misogyny, he ate and slept misogyny, he posted misogynistic rants on the Internet. It isn’t “gender politics” to point this out, any more than it’s “playing the race card” to point out the racism at the core of lynchings, or part of “the gay agenda” to point to homophobia in Matthew Shephard’s murder. Mental illness may or may not have smoothed the path between him and the gun, but sexism, hatred of women, and an outsize sense of entitlement based on male privilege pointed the way for him.
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His “impulses” still didn’t travel in a random direction. They were carefully, specifically directed at women.
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“That said, in my opinion this is a mental health issue, not a gender politics issue.”
Did you stutter?
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Oh, agreed. It sounds like he’s been a misogynist for a while. I’m still left wondering where the violence came from. I’m trying to figure how an entitled asshole becomes a mass murderer, and I suspect that gender politics, while certainly part of the explanation, isn’t the entire explanation.
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They were able to avoid those labels because those labels aren’t given to men, even gay men.
I agree with a lot of what you say, about how effective the gay rights movement has been in liberating men to not be so traditionally masculine. But they were able to do that because they were men. The label that some schools of feminism are adversarial COMES FROM MEN, because it’s easier to call a woman pushy and prudish and mean and whatever than to think that they’re the problem. Gay men had NO problems being adversarial to homophobes and bigots, they just weren’t called out and marginalized because of it, again, because they were men.
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I’m trying to figure how an entitled asshole becomes a mass murderer, and I suspect that gender politics, while certainly part of the explanation, isn’t the entire explanation.
Because the MRA movement that this man was a part of is inherently violent. The language is violent. The culture is violent. Violence against women is alluded to constantly, with no check or oversight.
That’s what makes it a gender politics issue. It’s not that he was violent and then chose to direct that violence to women because of what he read. The things he read INCITED him to violence. They told him that this was the way to assert himself as an alpha male, to exact revenge on the women who theoretically spurned him.
The only difference between this man and a normal dude on MRA boards who doesn’t do this is that the normal dude’s mental balance keeps his violent impulses under the surface, or expressed through other ways. But they’re still there, ready to strike at the woman who makes the mistake of crossing him. That’s what makes MRA’s so terrifying. It’s not uncommon for women to keep talking to a PUA or MRA person because they’re worried about setting him off.
That violence is there, in the culture of the MRA movement and in the broader culture which normalizes violence against women every day. The mental illness was the force multiplier of the violence that the movement and the culture instilled in him.
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Honestly, I think you got that backwards. The vast majority of people with mental illness do not harm others, especially not to the point of mass killing. On the other hand, misogyny kills, both directly and in so many subtle ways (like not being allowed to eat until all the men have eaten first, or not getting proper medical treatment, etc.).
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So, what is the root cause of this?
I’d argue it’s internet-enabled human nature.
The internet enables humans with long-tail interests to find each other and organize, or at least validate each other. some examples:
Based on your own life values, some of these you may agree with, some you may not. But from wherever you stand, the “crazies” can and will find each other.
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Just as soon as you answer for using oxygen once breathed by Hitler!
Listen, penises and vagina’s are a terrible hangup to have. Look what such an obsession could lead to!! I’d say anyone hung up on sexism (and I mean the perps and the activists) have a really counterproductive and limited view on human potential. The answer to power plays is not counter-power plays. Fuck sexism. Just be a humanist.
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The PUA/MRA culture doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Not defending it, because I don’t need to, but it is a reaction to a perception of something. If an activist truly believes that a problem is biologically based, and that education could never change it, then that activist has a choice to make. Be they a radical misogynist or a radical feminist (or a German art student!!) with such views.
I don’t think any of this is biologically based. Those who fail to learn the lessons of history (e.g. stop using other people as excuses, and just do your work) will repeat them on some scale.
This whole story sucks, but the ugliness it has brought out in otherwise well intentioned and wise people in this forum leads me to believe that a lot of y’all need to spend more time just liking yourselves without so much hating on others. Sorry 'bout the Godwin.
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I had to look this up 
I have zero success with women, but I think that just proves they have good taste.
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Men have been killing people for no reason in sprees for a long time. The internet didn’t enable this. If anything, the internet provided an inadequate outlet for the murderer’s one-way conversation. This murder wasn’t organized by a team over the internet. Yes, he was goaded by the message of patriarchal bigotry that is accessible over the web, but in the absence of the Internet, patriarchal bigotry is even more difficult to escape. This bigotry has always had a prominent (if seedy) place in male society. And it’s been analyzed and refined to sell goods and political positions in the mass media since the mass media has existed.
Calling patriarchal bigotry a “long-tail interest” is either wishful thinking or an insult to long-tail interests.
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No, I don’t think there is either. I do think that we should work at building one though, and I don’t think we should get sidetracked if MRAs show up and think it’s about them or if others feel that the idea itself is inherently sexist. Feminists often say that a strong women’s movement would be good for men. I’d strongly agree, and add that the reverse is also true. Possibly even more so, as the damage that patriarchy does to boys and men often translates to physical, sexual and mental abuse of women by these boys and men. Creating and promoting healthy ways of thinking in men, taking it seriously when men suffer from the effects of patriarchy, fostering understanding rather than animosity and promoting good role models will have profound effects on men and women’s wellbeing.
I don’t know how far this would have gone to stop this from happening, but it’s clear that this guy and the people he was communicating with online had very low self esteem and a feeling that there was no place for them in society. These are things that can be addressed to some extent by highlighting positive examples from society and encouraging realistic expectations from relationships.
Incidentally, thanks @Falcor for moving this discussion to its own topic; I think it’s important but I’d rather not choke discussion on other issues related to recent events.
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As near as I can tell, mass-killing and spree killing is a phenomena that begins in the [20th century][1]. That confounds it with the rise of mass media and the rise in access of weapons of mass murder (e.g., guns). Please share if you have other sources.
[1]: List of rampage killers - Wikipedia[quote=“andy_hilmer, post:55, topic:32382”]
This murder wasn’t organized by a team over the internet.
[/quote]
Straw argument. I was trying to start a conversation about human nature and the how the internet is accelerating its change, not put the internet on trial.
In my social circles: zines, post-hippydom, and body modification are more socially acceptable than outright patriarchal bigotry or misogyny. I’m sorry for you if you aren’t noticing such outright misogyny slide into the realm of topics that one can expect social condemnation.
But really, since we seem to be on the same side here, does it serve the greater interests if we engage each other in a battle of who is the better feminist?
I notice it, for sure, it’s just going to be another generation or three before it starts to really move out of the meat of the curve. I’m talking about the mainstream society that may be wrapped in the cocoon of popular culture, but isn’t of it. Conservative suburbs in Milwaukee. And there is a massive source of mainstream patriarchal bigotry in every culture around the planet that will continue to feed this culture in all areas through migration and unrest and even through social media.
My issue was with the way you minimized the problem and minimize the people who are stuck in the mainstream culture. Someone like you from an “enlightened” environment, you don’t see the problem viscerally and up close. You don’t see the quantity of people who live in “fringe” land. You see the horror stories as the freaky outliers. I hope we get there, but we’re not there yet. Your perspective is still the outlier.
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I appreciate your willingness to dialogue.
I don’t much care for your assumptions about who I am and where I’ve been, as I don’t see them add to this discussion. And this will be the last time we interact in this thread.
I will close with saying that it’s entirely repugnant to me how Diet Coke is dropping a sex-appeal ridden ad on the bumpers to the sheriff’s report on this case. (I’ve refreshed the vid and it comes up 3/3 times, once at the end).
I always thought that was code for “I’m not like that”.
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