Growing up I didn’t realize the fact I didn’t have to pay was because my family was on a meal program with my school. I just figured ‘huh seems mom paid up for the whole year and here we are.’ Made sense to me at the time. Now i’m picturing little eight year old me told to get at the back of the line because little timmy bribed his way to the front of the line. Now I’m picturing my niece in that situation.
I am Jack’s smouldering rage.
“My child was raped. I’m furious!”
“My dog was killed. I’m furious!”
“Nazis are carrying torches on a college campus. I’m furious!”
“A domestic terrorist drove a car into a crowd of people and the President took three days to denounce the group that inspired him. I’m furious!”
I think you see where I’m going here.
That’s a terrible violent crime, I fully understand!
Who would do such a thing? That’s terrible!
That’s very troubling and one can clearly see how that would be upsetting.
What a horrible and despicable crime!
If I’m supposed to understand that you’re trying to imply a false moral equivalence, then yes.
No. It’s not false moral equivalence. The idea is, on its face, unjust and terrible. The fact that it was ever seriously considered for implementation is deeply concerning. And, frankly, I think they did intend to implement it, but backed down after the backlash.
The point I was making is that outrage at injustice is pretty obvious, and doesn’t really require explanation. I think you know that though, which is why you decided it was a great chance to troll.
QFT
I see your latin. Maybe you want to familiarize yourself with some more. Look up “ad hominem”. Far from gaslighting. My posts are as they were and are there for all to read. I did correct a typo in one, but I’ll make sure to note that clearly in the future.
How much attention can you get for asking a personal question and then telling people they’re wrong, or better yet, making ‘false moral equivalences’…
PHYSICIAN, HEAL THYSELF
If it upsets people… that’s a chance to choose to show empathy. Ask and listen. Ask and accept.
You’re not doing that here, and I don’t think you’re here to.
What about this topic so interests you?? Why this here -from you- in a thread about schoolyard inequality?
Suuuuure it is.
Gaslighting is someone telling you what needs to be true for them to do what they’re going to do, with a clear conscience.
You’re goaltending peoples feelings, that’s gaslighting. Sorry bub, it is.
I’m done here now. Goodbye willmore. If you have anything productive to say about the topic at hand, and not shitting on other people and playing victim when called on it, have at it.
Good luck out there.
I am once again honestly asking why this upsets people so much. I am not driving trollies and, quite the opposite, I feel I’m the one being trolled, especially by One_Brown_Mouse, who has commented a lot but said noting to move the converstaion along.
I read the article, even assuming the worse–as you do–and the PT[S]A really meant to implement this and backed off only after some backlash. What I see is unpaid parent volunteers who are trying to raise money to help out the children at their school. I don’t feel a need to question the[ir] intentions to do their best to help the children at the school. Is that unfair or me? But, even the article states that this was something that was brainstormed and shot down before it was implemented.
For everyone who feels infuriated about this, I challenge you to go find a nearby school and donate your time and/or money. Do something positive with that emotion.
Edits in Edited to say I misspelled “edits”
First paragraph has me thinking this is a bad idea. Second paragraph confirms that the school thinks so too. Why does this post then go on a massive anti-capitalist tirade? Some PTSA mom probably threw out an idea to try and raise $500 to buy some binders; I doubt she planned this out as the first step of a plan to raise the master race on the backs of the poor and downtrodden.
You post interesting articles that I’ve enjoyed reading over the last couple years, but rants like these are a huge turn off. It tells me this site is intended as a massive echo chamber rather than a place for meaningful discussion. If your goal is to convince differing opinions, I don’t think charged posts like these are going to get you there.
This is a PTA and not the district. In California, at least, they cannot charge money for any service at all at the school – even sports are done on a “suggested” donation and there’s often money from the PTA to cover the shortfalls in the marginal costs that are otherwise taken on by well-off parents.
That said, PTAs often insert themselves as would-be gatekeepers for school resources. It is blatantly illegal in California at least to demand it but the school district in my town, anyway, lets the PTA announce things like “you can’t get your kids schedule unless you’ve donated!” which they don’t actually enforce (they can’t, anyway), and the school district sort of winks and nods at the hard sell. The PTA does good work around here, with arts and science and whatnot, but the PTA parents are always looking for novel ways to shake money out of parents, often in quasi-legal, and often sketchy, ways.
The school district massively benefits from the ratings they get because of the volunteer efforts, so they seem to be incentivized to look the other way, but it’s terribly obnoxious (not least that they have a $250K+ cash reserve and to keep it legitimate, with whatever the spending/fundraising rules are, they often have to spend that money down on totally stupid crap – like BBQs for the parents offered for free)
Christ, what assholes.
Where is Bugs sawing off Florida when you need him?
On the internet, that can be a cover for concern driving trollies.
Not that I’m accusing you of such behavior, just Letting You Know.
That said, I personally find this idea despicable and very short sighted, but I’m not “enraged.”
As a parent who’s done more than my fair share of unpaid volunteering, I find it incredibly sad and very telling that unethical schemes like this are all that some people can come up with in the way “solutions” to their revenue problems.
Thank you.
I read that page and I didn’t do that. Unless you’re implying that it’s a ‘wild accusation’ to not be furious about this. As a matter of fact, the second paragraph of that page seems to be spot on here:
It should be noted that accusing one’s opponent of “just asking questions” is a common derailment tactic and a way of poisoning the well. Asking questions in and of itself is NOT invalid.
I didn’t say or imply that.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually ‘dont get it’ why some people are upset.
Nutshell:
They are upset because such a bad idea should have even been floated, let alone seriously considered before there was a backlash.
It’s just yet another example of how our ‘civilization’ isn’t really civilized at all.
Lesson over; good day.
Look, cannibalism was just an idea I threw out there. You can’t judge me for having ideas.
Was your goal in posting to convince people with differing opinions than your own? If no, then why would you assume that’s the goal of other people. If yes, then why would you think you are qualified to give advice on how to do that when no one who doesn’t already agree with you would possibly be swayed by what you just wrote?
In short, I don’t think @doctorow will be hiring your consulting service for future posts.
And I realize I’m responding to you in particular, but in general these kinds of posts where someone gives their opinion of how to convince other people of things are tiring. They are never convincing themselves and so they, and never provide any reason to think the author is an expert-on-convincing who should be listened to. Before you try to tell anyone else how to convince anyone of anything, ask yourself what your record of being convincing is.
Here’s why you come across as disingenuous: There are tons of people who think that treating children at school differently because of their parents’ ability to pay for perks is deeply wrong. The idea that you wouldn’t be aware that anyone had that value seems almost beyond belief at first. But of course the world is full of all kinds of different people.
Well, not really. It went out in an orientation package and it shouldn’t have. I feel this would be a bit like if that divorce lawyer you contacted sent a letter to your spouse when you had really meant to just have an opening discussion and not to act on anything. Sure, it was just an honest mistake, you didn’t really want to get divorced, but you might still have something to answer for.
Always happy to help!
Thanks for that explanation. I appear to be someone who doesn’t have that strong reaction. I would like to clarify that I do know that some people hold that belief–one could not help but to know that if they had bothered to read Cory’s post or most of this thread. What I don’t know is why they feel that way. I still hold out hope that someone will be able to explain why this offends them so deeply. But, like many strongly held beliefs, it may not be something an individual has ever stopped to contemplate and, hence, cannot articulate well.
Other than basic human empahty, here’s why I ask. As it is, I don’t feel as these others do. Maybe, if I understood why they felt the way they do, I might realize that I am angered by it as well.
Edited to add: Which leads to better common understanding and possibly shared actions.
I am once again honestly asking why this upsets people so much. I am not driving trollies and, quite the opposite, I feel I’m the one being trolled, especially by One_Brown_Mouse, who has commented a lot but said noting to move the converstaion along.
You sound distraught! Try not to let it upset you too much. My experience is that there are just some people in this world that you’ll never be able to understand.
Anyway, let me take a stab at this. The question “Who deserves what?” sounds like it should be simple, but it’s actually enormously complicated: Whole civilizations have risen and fallen based on their ability to answer it.
So: In 21st Century US culture, there’s an ideal that students deserve equal treatment, except that they can earn praise and other privileges by showing that they’ve mastered the material. Granting privileges to students based on their parents’ income upsets that balance: It sends a message that “studying the material” and “having rich parents” are equally valid ways of achieving the same goal, and if you can do one you don’t need to worry about the other.
That’s probably not clear, so let me try an analogy. Do you follow sports at all? Maybe golf? Imagine a game of golf where you got to subtract one point from your score for every thousand dollars you gave the scorekeeper. Would you want to play a game like that? Or watch it as a spectator? I personally wouldn’t; it seems like a subversion of the idea of healthy competition.
(Obviously this rule doesn’t work in all situations. If someone had some rare artwork that they needed to liquidate, then auctioning it off to the highest bidder makes sense. Some people might say, “No, you should give it to the person who would enjoy the art more!” But how would you even measure such a thing?)
Let me know if you don’t understand any of that, and I’ll see if I can explain it again using different words.
