Everyone thinks “what if those people just didn’t exist? Do we get that wealth back that we worked for?”
but practically, even if we started our socialist revolution to dismantle private/absentee property claims peacefully … there’s gonna be some resistance.
people don’t want to openly say “sure, i guess lets just kill them” … but come on … if you’ve got a better option don’t keep it to yourself.
Oh Cory having fun with the URL… His article titles and URLs for the main site have been different for quite awhile now.
Well played @doctorow you got someones panties in a knot this time. Care to comment on it Cory?
The American Revolution directly led to the accelerating genocide of Native Americans and the perpetuation of chattel slavery.
The Russian Revolution was surprisingly low in bloodshed (given the context and history of early-20th century Russia) until the Civil War got going (with massive Western backing for the Whites). Similarly, the infamous surge of beheading didn’t happen in France until some time after the revolution.
If we’re including the aftershocks for France and Russia, it only seems fair to include them for America as well.
The expectation is that I’ll just read random history at random until I prove to myself something that I’ve never come across in all the reading I’ve done to date?
That’s absurd and I think you know it. Tell you what give me ONE example or point me in the right direction and I’ll do some more homework on my own. We’re not all PhDs ya know.
I thought you may be willing to reason with people whose opinions differ than your own rather than try to undercut them with shady rhetorical tactics.
Oops, I guess not. Flagged for baseless implication of sexism.
Never said or implied otherwise.
I don’t think that’s a very reasonable characterization of my tone here. I’d say keep up the revolutionary rhetoric and see how many elections you win, except you’re causing me to lose those elections as well since I’m probably largely in support of the same policies you are.
OK, good argument. American revolution was less justified.
I wonder if anyone else here is capable of admitting they’re wrong about anything…
Flag if you think it’s inappropriate. There is nothing “shady” about this. If you think I’m being shady, then stop talking to me.
See, not hard.
Just more fun to stick it to the left, I guess.
None of those have anything to do with the French revolution.
As stated somewhere above, I consider myself a leftist. I’m just advocating for my opinions, not “sticking it” to anyone. Saying something that logically implies that the left did something (mass murder) that they actually did (they did) is not unfairly maligning anyone.
None of those count, because it’s not about the French Revolution.
General strike, ASAP. Nationwide, and maintained until the government is overthrown.
If you want to prevent WWIII, you need to do it before it begins.
They justify violence in self defense, but they don’t specifically justify the violence of the French revolution. Which was pretty clearly what I was referring to in context.
I am firmly against the death penalty. I would not even execute in cold blood any of those three monsters that you mention, had they been captured alive.
Let’s use a more contemporary case: Are you in favor of the execution of Yugoslav war criminals, or any other contemporary war criminals?
Let’s have some history:
John’s a nice guy, but his history is based in a centrist liberal capitalist Christian perspective, so his conclusions and framing are somewhat different to what you’d hear from a leftist like Hobsbawm or Zinn (or me).
It’s still well done and interesting, though.
Nice dodge, but you are the one claiming certain cultures are better than others at overcoming that level of resentment in the face of extreme inequality like that described in the article. I have plenty of examples of ones that aren’t, including some that were regarded as the height of civilisation at the time. Where’s your example of the Cloud Cuckooland where that level of resentment at extreme inequality doesn’t eventually explode into violence (including that exercised by the state to forestall it)?
The right continually obscures their grabs at their enemies’ wealth (whether the net worth is large or small) with sham “culture wars.” The Nazis, being afficiandos of capital punishment, used guillotines in that process, too, by the way. Or did you think that was only a feature of this monolithic “left” to which you keep referring and to which you claim to belong?
I’m not talking about the Tea Party, as much as you’d like to pretend that the MAGA rallies didn’t involve calls for violence by the main speaker, that the Charlottesville rally didn’t happen, that Steve Bannon still doesn’t have influence on American politics, and that no-kidding fascists aren’t marching in parades and winning elections across the globe. But you keep believing that it’s still 2008 or that the antifa are initiating and driving the violence.
If I seem to be preaching to the choir here, it’s because this site’s audience, unlike that of Breitbart or Fox News, actually knows the basic facts of history and economics (not to mention It’s ability to recognise shoddy bad-faith arguments) despite not everyone having advanced degrees. A handful of right-wing and Libertarian charlatans aside,* the diagnosis part is done here, and we’ve moved on to debating treatments and remedies (cranial amputations are seen as a last resort).
Your assumption that that I want to “turn the working class against the economic elite” is mistaken. I (and I suspect Cory) would rather that both be allies in building a better world, and if that means a billionaire giving up his second super-yacht so be it. The guillotine is invoked as a grim alternative, and that invocation is directed not at the working class but at those members of the economic elite who are still too greedy to see sense and need a clear warning.
I’ve studied the political and economic history of the fascist period of the 20th century extensively and keep abreast of current affairs enough that I already know the core issues driving that world view without wasting much time reading and watching propaganda outlets spouting simple-minded variations on Goebbels.
That’s correct. It’s the “wrong” kind of wealthy people they want to make miserable or (for a subset) kill … “wrong” because they’re not white, or male, or Christian, or straight, or suburbanites …“wrong” because they’ve made their fortunes in industries that demand creativity be applied to goals other than extracting as much money as possible from the land or the serfs … and most of all, “wrong” because they’re actually enjoying their wealth instead of locking themselves into an endless and unsustainable game in which money and the things it buys is used to keep score.
[* they’re here, and if they’re interesting and attempt to argue in good faith they provide some entertainment value; if not, they become tiresome and get Muted. It’s a credit to the moderation and community here that there are currently only three people who’ve been able to stick around long enough to make it to my Mute list, and one isn’t a right-winger at all]
Me personal? I’m against the death penalty.
And none of those are that long ago, actually, in the grand scheme of things.
Discussing why violence happens and advocating for it are two different things.
You said “the left.” That’s a pretty broad and wide category there. when the French Revolution was happening, there was no united whole left, and the meaning of that word has broad meaning today.
Wow; this thread, though…
You’re welcome! 
Grazie, I just popped in to check my hands:
Well, Jefferson had that whole “Tree of liberty refreshed by blood” thing.
The only time in the U.S. that the corporate elite was willing to share was in the period of the Great Depression through the aftermath of WWII. In that period there was a viable communist (nightmare world, really) nation and battle hardened veterans coming home from a horrible war. Those vets were not only survivors of the “Big One”, but survivors of the Great Depression.
The elites were shit scared of those tough vets aligning with true socialist/communist ideologues due to a continuation of pre-New Deal working poverty and debt peonage. So, they sneered and gave the (white) working people breathing room, a commitment to full employment, and many social democratic benefits.
The current batch of sociopathic elite have seen the demise of the communist threat, the destruction of union/labor power, and the Left implosion.
I don’t think this class has any sense of fearing the poor. The only have contempt.
