Does that apply if you have two towns 100km apart, each with a signalised intersection? Where I live you have to cross at the signals if you are within 20 metres of the signalised intersection.
Damnit damnit damnit!
you beat me by 11 minutes in a long thread!
effit heres the youtubeā¦
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Where I live, with busy intersections:
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When the light is white, there are drivers looking left and turning right through the intersection. At a few death traps, there are drivers turning left too.
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When the light is painfully flashing orange, there might be a gap.
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When the light is still orange, there are drivers either turning left or going straight through the intersection.
Sometimes the safest option is to avoid the intersections and cross somewhere else.
Farther east, at some busy intersections with safety signals for blind people:
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When the light is white, there is an incredibly loud noise that forces me to curl up and scream in agony. [I feel awkward about conflicting accessibiliy needs, of course.]
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When the light is painfully flashing orange, there might be a gap.
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When the light is still orange, there are drivers either turning left or going straight through the intersection.
Maybe these sorts of one-size-fits-all solutions donāt fit either the traffic patterns at the intersection or the abilities and disabilities of the person who needs to cross?
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While Iām not okay with disproportionate enforcement, I was taught pedestrian traffic laws in elementary school where I very clearly learned that the flashing ādonāt walkā sign meant, āIf you are already in the crosswalk finish crossing, but if you havenāt stepped off the curb yet, donāt.ā
Trying to argue that itās NOT against the law is like arguing, āThe light was yellow when I entered the intersection.ā That is NOT how yellow lights work and not what the law states. Same goes for the flashing hand.
Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
Again, if itās being unfairly and disproportionately enforced thatās a real issue. But itās a law that makes sense. Just like the yellow light, it provides buffer time to ensure that there are no close calls.
But if you need to cross the street at a busy intersection, there are only so many options:
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Cross when it is white, and get hit. Yes, Iāve tried this. Yes, Iāve been lucky and survived without any broken bones. No, I donāt think it is safe.
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Cross when it is painfully flashing, during the gap.
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Cross when it is red, and get hit.
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Cross somewhere safer.
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Donāt cross.
I would be surprised to find that yellow lights didnāt work that way. The whole point of yellow lights is to allow people to travel safely through an intersection instead of slamming on their brakes. And every traffic signal Iāve ever seen has a delay between one directionās red light and the other directionās green, specifically to allow time for cars already in the intersection to clear it.
Hereās what the law says about yellow lights in California:
California Traffic Code Section 21452. (a) A driver facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal is, by that signal, warned that the related green movement is ending or that a red indication will be shown immediately thereafter.
(b) A pedestrian facing a steady circular yellow or a yellow arrow signal, unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian control signal as provided in Section 21456, is, by that signal, warned that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway and shall not enter the roadway.
[Emphasis added.]
California Traffic Code Section 22526.
(a) Notwithstanding any official traffic control signal indication to proceed, a driver of a vehicle shall not enter an intersection or marked crosswalk unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection or marked crosswalk to accommodate the vehicle driven without obstructing the through passage of vehicles from either side.
(b) A driver of a vehicle which is making a turn at an intersection who is facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal shall not enter the intersection or marked crosswalk unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection or marked crosswalk to accommodate the vehicle driven without obstructing the through passage of vehicles from either side.
Iām a lawyer, but not yours, not licensed in California, and traffic laws arenāt my area of expertise, and in any event none of this is legal advice. But my non-advisory reading of those code provisions is that it is 100% kosher for a driver to enter an intersection while the light is yellow, unless traffic is so backed up on the other side of the intersection that the driver would be stopped in the intersection. I donāt suspect (but donāt know for sure) that the law is much different anywhere else.
And getting back to the OP point: the law against entering a crosswalk when the red hand was flashing made good sense when those lights didnāt come with a countdown timer. I have yet to see a downtown street anywhere Iāve ever lived that I canāt get across in 10 seconds or less, and so if the red hand starts flashing and tells me Iāve got 20 seconds before the light changes, I can cross safely. Passing dumb laws and enforcing them blindly does nobody any good and erodes respect for the law.
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Wisconsin has the same pedestrians have the right of way statutes. I recall the police often giving drivers tickets for failing to yield to pedestrians.
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La majestueuse ƩgalitƩ des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues et de voler du pain.
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Depends on the intersection. In the vast majority of cases, the problem stems from too many cars (and most especially those that enter the intersection without enough open space on the other side for them to immediately exit it). But I have encountered several locations where it can take several cycles of traffic lights to make a left turn through an intersection with virtually no vehicular cross traffic, but a large crowd of signal-ignoring pedestrians, usually leaving a concert or some other similar event.
But thatās just another instance of people assuming their own personal convenience outweighs everyone elseās. Certainly not a trait unique to pedestrians, or bicyclists, or motorists, or any other mode of transportation.
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Chicago tried to crack down on Jaywalkers in 2005. They were going to issue tickets ranging from $25 to $500.
Chicagoās city council will consider a proposal to allow employees of the Traffic Management Authority to issue jaywalking tickets worth $25 to $500 each. The move comes as the city takes a number of steps to close a massive $104 million budget deficit. Jaywalking tickets have become an increasingly popular tactic for city officials.
Howād that work out? Six days later:
Daleyās short-lived proposal would have allowed crossing guards to issue jaywalking tickets worth up to $500. Daley dropped the plan the day before pedestrians had prepared to rally in protest of the crackdown. A number of Aldermen had also come out strongly opposed to the ticketing plan.
I wouldnāt, unless I had a reason to, such as writing an article specifically about a particular law. Then I certainly would check on what the law actually was.
Yeah, it does seem natural. There is no basis for knowing if the cops are overstepping their boundaries, unless you know what the law actually is.
Nobody said you have to. In California, at least, you have to get across before the red hand (formerly āDONT WALKā signal) stops flashing. When it starts flashing is the point after which youāre not allowed to enter the intersection, since the signal figures you wonāt have time to get across safely if you start crossing after that moment.
Probably not; my guess is they ticket the cars even more often, since the cars outnumber the peds in most L.A. streets. I was ticketed once for running a red light in an intersection Iād entered at the tail end of green, but didnāt fully exit before the red. Wasnāt a case of recklessly slow driving on my part, was a genuinely short yellow for a turn that involved a long left turn due to an obtuse intersection angle, and entering the intersection immediately after entering the street from a driveway right next to the intersection, so there was really no way to win without burning rubber and cornering on two wheels. But the cop didnāt see me enter the intersection; he only saw me leave it late and assumed I was speeding along trying to beat the light and slowed down to enter the intersection, rather than starting from a dead stop and accelerating to get through it. Whatever; he was a dipshit with a quota to meet.
Lincoln Ave at Montana St in Pasadena. And many, many others. Since you asked. 
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Note, the vehicle code actually makes no mention of when it is our isnāt legal to enter an intersection on a yellow light, however the standard interpretation is that if you are at a distance and speed from the intersection when the light turns yellow that would allow you to make a safe, controlled stop, then you are to stop. Otherwise you are permitted to travel through rather than make an unsafe stop .
The countdown is to inform pedestrians already in the croswalk how much time they have to complete their crossing, not to an invitation to go for your 50 yard dash record. Most pointedly the rule to not enter the croswalk on a flashing signal avoids ambiguity for drivers making right turns.
Like all traffic laws Iād prefer situationally aware enforcement. If the conditions are such that there is clearly no danger [2am, empty roads] then writing tickets on technicalities that pose no danger is pointlessly punitive. But the existence of conditions where the infraction is safe does not defacto make a pointless infraction definition across the board.
- Is there a way to send money to this man? We can help him pay for his ticket and hopefully shame the city into changing this awful law.
- Does he have any grounds to sue for a discriminatory practice, given what some are saying about the much lower cost of parking tickets?
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Yeah, those situations suck. Where I work, thereās a traffic light right out of the parking lot, and when I get off my shift at 1am, the light stays red till presumably 6am. Iāve never seen it turn green (itās a T intersection, and the thru-traffic section is permanently green all night), to the point where the first time I encountered it, I sat at the light for half an hour getting progressively more stressed out and annoyed.
I just blow through it now. Thereās no point in following the law when thereās no accommodation for common sense. I could sit there till sunrise when the circuit timer starts back up again, or I could just make my left turn when I see there arenāt any cars on the road for a mile in either direction.
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Well, you arenāt supposed to hit them, even if they arenāt supposed to be there. Drivers ed is about teaching you to drive, not the lawā¦ When they say āpedestrians always have the right of wayā they donāt generally mean it in the legal sense (the exact rules definitely vary by state). Also, based on the last clear chance rule, if you fail to take reasonable action to avoid an accident you can still be partially or entirely at fault, even if the pedestrian or other driver was violating the rules of the road and should have been in danger. Of course, these rules apply whether the other party is a pedestrian, cyclist, or another car ā you are always supposed to avoid collisions. The focus on pedestrians is because they are the most vulnerable and because they are the most unpredictable: they could be children, handicapped, or just not paying attention because they are not the licensed driver in over a ton of metal moving at 40 mph.
What pisses me off is that it seems like nobody even knows what it means to yield to pedestrians when the do have the right of way, which at least in California is at all crosswalks (including unmarked crosswalks) that do not have signals. This means that if you see a pedestrian waiting to cross the street and you can safely stop you are required to do so and allow them to proceed, even if you do not otherwise have a stop or yield sign. But most people treat the law as if cars have the right of way, and pedestrians are supposed to wait for a gap in traffic where they can cross without impeding traffic. I wish the police would start issuing traffic tickets for failing to yield to pedestrians, that is a much more pervasive problem around here than pedestrians violating the donāt walk sign.
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Christ, what a first time poster.
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Well, at least as far as pedestrians entering the crosswalk while donāt walk is flashing, they arenāt really the main problem (although they arenāt helping). Pedestrians are entitled to be in the crosswalk until the solid donāt walk, which usually coincides with the yellow light with no extra time for turning traffic. The same problem exists with oncoming traffic, and when that is a frequent problem there should be a protected turn signal, ideally at the beginning of the cycle before pedestrians start crossing. Unless you just mean that there is a huge crowd crossing even when the light is red. If that is happening near a stadium or concert, it is probably the sort of situation where there should be a person directing traffic.
They do that in LA, or at least they did when I lived there. LAPD even used to do sting operations where theyād ticket drivers who failed to stop for pedestrians. Heck, blocking a crosswalk while stopped at a light was ticketable, and I have personally witnessed drivers getting one.
Ticketing jawywalkers was just the other side of enforcing a detente between drivers and pedestrians. Again when I lived in LA I personally witnessed jaywalkers getting ticketed in the ritzy Larchmont Village.
The upshot is that when I lived in LA stepping into a crosswalk made cars stop for the pedestrian, and Iām still not completely used to that not being the case despite living on the East Coast for several years. Likewise it still takes an act of will for me to cross against the light.
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