Social Justice Warriors and the New Culture War

Yes, most AAA movies and video games have incredibly lazy story telling. What a shock. Or they latch onto an IP and they squeeze as much money as they can out of it. Most of the interesting stuff I play tends to come from indie developers, though you might get a rare gem from a AAA like Spec Ops: The Line. Is it too much to ask for them to try a little harder?

Not every game needs a story either and novel gameplay can be it’s own reward. Sandboxes and sims and rougelikes are a lot of fun too. I’m currently obsessed with Crypt of the Necrodancer.

Which isn’t a problem anymore, because developers usually target consoles first and port to PCs later. I haven’t had to upgrade my tower in years. The requirements have gone down. Most normal people also just buy a console or play on their phones.

As someone who also does track days, they’re much friendlier than the general cesspool of internet comments you get whenever someone mentions “video games” and “women”.

Excuse me, which female leaders?

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I just caught up with this thread, let me try and sum it up as I see it:

  1. You ask what would SJW would want to do if they get their way.
  2. @HMSGoose replies succinctly: to critique the presentation of women
    in video games without being harassed/threatened.
  3. Next you ask if they want to ban Lolita?

It seems to me you think SJW want to censor content?

I don’t think anyone is arguing for censorship.

The best way of changing attitudes without censorship (which just like harassment nobody is arguing FOR) would be a open discussion, That is what is needed now, that is what is being hindered by personal attacks.

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[quote=“PatRx2, post:144, topic:42342”]
…it’s not a particularly small minority…
[/quote]Data? Is there a reliable survey on the feelings of gamers as a whole and their opinions on women playing video games or women being involved in the industry? Remember that any sized group can be infinitely loud on the internet by using multiple accounts or spamming emails. And we’re talking about geeky people here who would be well-versed in those sorts of tactics.

I agree with you that it has a disproportionate influence on the industry, but I think there’s an interesting reason. There’s apparently a cognitive bias related to progressive ideas where people feel that their personal progressive beliefs are less commonly held than they really are. As a result, people are less likely to voice what they believe to be unpopular opinions, because they are afraid of a conservative backlash. And because there are a few people who really do hold those conservative beliefs, when that conservative minority cries out confirmation bias causes people in the progressive majority to assume that the population is as conservative as they originally assumed.

This doesn’t have a super strong effect on dialogues, especially semi-anonymous dialogues like we’re having right now, but it does have a big effect on business decisions. When a developer is making decisions about the content of their game, they try to make something as widely appealing as they can to maximize sales. They make a lot of assumptions about gamers in the process (like that they are sexist or lack empathy) and they use that to inform design decisions to maximize profits. For example, a lot of companies won’t use female protagonists because they believe that most of their audience will refuse to play as women.

Anyway, for that reason, I’ll definitely agree that they have a disproportionate impact on the industry. The industry assumes that gamers aren’t mature enough to accept females in their games, and the few people who actually aren’t make it seem like the rest of us feel the same way.

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That is a valid question, bringing to mind observer bias and shark-vs-cow mortality fears.

While “normal” may not be technically accurate, I fear that the reality is all to akin to it being normal. :frowning:

Just because you’ve improved your armor doesn’t mean you’re no longer being attacked.

It pretty much was, for years. Things have changed a bit after the Playstation slowly turned the market back towards consoles, but by then the dominant genres had become immersive First Person Shooters / RPGs, sport games and racing games, where the “best titles” are inevitably ones with better graphics (i.e. will only run on high-spec rigs) and which are very unfriendly towards casual gamers. It made sense at the time, feeding a virtuous circle of hardware and software companies working in unison to sell their products – the Wintel cartel on steroids, basically. The only company resisting this trend was Nintendo, which continued to cater for casual gamers; the fact that they have more women in their demographics can be read either as a cause or an effect of this policy, I honestly don’t know the relevant Japanese dynamics in play, but it’s been correlated more than once.

Sorry, i meant the gaming subculture. I don’t think my wife knows or cares about it at all, today.

In one word: kids. She’s much more interested in them than anything else. I’m a self-obsessed lazy bastard, so I have more mental energy to waste.

The ones “commanding” their social circles in high school, basically. At that critical time when teenagers are somewhat forced to (learn to) socialize, what their esteemed peers do or say carries a huge weight. In the male world, sport simulations kept traditional culture and videogames fairly close, but IMHO there hasn’t been an equivalent long-standing link for females. I’m generalizing, of course, but it’s a fact that we keep analyzing only one side of the equation.

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That might well be, but the various “codes of conduct” now applying to any event or gathering can be perceived as exactly that.

As somebody said on Twitter the other day, we all have limits to our “no censorship” policies – for Germans it’s Nazis, for the British it’s the Queen, and for Americans it’s the world of military procurement.

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The same can be said for Hollywood, chick-lit, you name it. Mass-produced culture caters to the lowest common denominator; that is not particularly typical of the gaming world.

No, but by now the damage has been done. I’ve been out of the gaming world for years because I hated FPS/RPGs/Starcraft clones, and that was the only stuff the industry would sell. Some conventions and cliques were culturally fossilized and now we’re dealing with the results.

That might well be, but let’s not pretend it’s not an extremely sexist world. Female F1 pilots today? None – the occasional tester and some isolated high-profile dud in the past. Is there a female equivalent to F1, MotoGP etc? Might as well, not that anyone really cares. Meanwhile, who carries little umbrellas around? Who kisses the winner? Etc etc.

See my other reply.

this is a good take

Except that they aren’t just selling games to Japanese consumers, but to the US market as well…but the continued popularity of nintendo should tell you something. You’re defining gaming culture rather narrowly here to mean first person shooter type games, but it’s so much more.

And is that maybe because the way games are marketed is so narrow perhaps?

These two might be related. :wink: Joking aside…many women are the primary care givers (for children and the elderly) because it’s been left to us, both in the professional and personal world. Not that women don’t do this work because they enjoy it or love their families, but that our society also slants things this way. Much of our culture works to reinforce gendered stereotypes that helps to cement the “rightness” of these stereotypes in people’s minds. It becomes “common sense” and “how things should be”, no matter how things actually work in real life, and those who push against these norms are often shamed for it… especially starting in high school.

Are you seriously suggesting that it’s cheerleaders that are the “leaders” of women? We’re not talking about teenaged subcultures here… grown-ass adults are involved in this culture. We’re mostly grown ass adults here, right? Nor are the young women who are at the top of the social heap in high school necessarily feminist, thought that might be more true now then it was when I was in high school 20 years ago (ouch… that hurt to type). Women who like to game are likely interested in it for the same reasons young men have been… it provided a safe space for them, and now they are being driven out for trying to express their views on this culture and how they think it can be improved for everyone. These are not “fake geek girls” who are involved because it’s all of a sudden cool.

There are no “leaders of women”… we are half the population in this world, we are a diverse group of people, with varying interests. Women who game deserve to be treated with fairness and respect, same as in any other space. I’m honestly unsure why this is such a controversial point of view…

Can you clarify this point, please? I’m not sure I get what you’re saying here…

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Ah, not the point I was intending to make. I understand how that is what you read from it though, my fault.

I was thinking of the criticism of games and the gaming community: We should be prepared to tolerate an awful lot of otherwise transgressive behavior inside games and inside sectors of the gaming community, because it is the perfect safe space, it’s one of the only such spaces where we have a near-guarantee that no one is going to get assaulted in the processes because all the physicality is by proxy. It’s virtual, so it’s effectively infinite in terms of getting away and self-segregating. It’s better that socialization happens online than in locker rooms and hallways and playgrounds. The wasp’s nest analogy earlier in the thread is relevant here, but we’re not talking about wasps, we’re talking about bees; the problem is that we don’t want to see the transgresive play happening, not that we don’t want it to happen (Though some people apparently really don’t want it to happen, and are simply wrong and unrealistic). That audience (for the most part) occupies it’s own sub-spaces, so it’s off in another room. The gaming market, as you correctly point out, has always been larger than that market, but that market has always been served.

The narrative has been about challenging the acceptability of building games to fill the transgressive play/adolescent fantasy function, and (later, with the “gaming is over” routine) about kicking people who are there for that function out of the community, not because their behavior has changed, but because there is now an audience and other people in their corner of the market who want the current inhabitants who are there for transgressive exploration to get in line with their norms.

That all, in my opinion, means we should be intentionally carving out a space for transgressive play in games. Not just “more GTA,” more opportunities to “step out” in games where transgressive play isn’t the only option, but you can still save state an slaughter a village before restoring (or not). More private servers and friends lists so you can decide if it’s what you’re there for right now.

You are, of course, correct. Gamer culture is composed of many subcultures, many only barely related. However, the problematic gamer culture is what gets talked about, not the inoffensive ones. For example, the Sims are highly popular with both men and women, offend very few, and is practically invisible as far as the media is concerned.

So, for this discussion, people are (incorrectly) using “gamer culture” to refer to the “FPS player culture” because that’s the only culture that’s interesting for outsiders to discuss or analyze.

Note, this media attention to only one subculture can be destructive, as it makes it easy for even participants in the gamer market to forget that the other subcultures exist. People forget to design and market for those outside the subculture, participants in gaming are told this is what “gaming” is like and (especially youngsters) try to conform to media expectations…

Agreed, or perhaps women have higher standards for care than men :-). There’s no doubt that statistically, women do more care-giving than men.

However, toyg’s humor aside, as responsible parents, we all give up a great deal when we become parents. The question is what is given up. And by observation (and huge generalization), I’d say when we become parents, many men give up most leisure outside of some gaming, and many women give up most leisure outside of some socializing with peers.

Now, I know of several women of which that is not true (gaming, reading or knitting being examples of the one leisure that survived having a child), but it does mean that many will drop out of gaming not because they were forced out by social pressure and inadequate fathers, but because gaming wasn’t what they needed to keep sane.

No, but there are people that common culture and the media have chosen to represent men and women. In this case, the “leaders of women” are those who are poking at the sexism in FPS and other gamer cultures and the “leaders of men” are the misogynists who threaten violence and start Gamer’s Gate.

Personally, If I have to be pigeonholed for outside consumption, I’d have preferred to be represented by the “leaders of women” any day :-).

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Are you serious? The high school experience was different for everyone. Yes, maybe high school was the worst for you, but you can stop being angry about this now. Also, while I’m sure your wife is a great person, she certainly does not represent all women.

If you ever gain any epiphanies from having a daughter, well lets just hope you didn’t make any liver pyramids in the meantime. http://the-toast.net/2014/09/11/father-daughters-think-treat-women-like-daughters/

Growing up in the 90’s was exciting. Each new console was a technological LEAP. Today, gains are incremental and without tuning, you wouldn’t necessarily be able to tell the difference. Games today have to try harder with art style and content because the crutch of better tech isn’t going to magically gloss over gaping gameplay flaws. Thankfully, devs are finding it easier to get funding for their projects with other avenues like kickstarter, and are scaling back on the need for being cutting edge. Some of the best stuff I’ve played recently is 2D and uses sprites, or uses a lot fewer polygons with cell shading.

What exactly did you play before, fighting games? Muds? Racing? Excluding the main stays of FPSs, RPGs, and real time strategy games is like saying Mysteries, Romance and Sci-Fi ruined literature forever.

At the highest echelons, provided that you have the money and the skills, there hasn’t been anything blocking women drivers beyond the normal cultural stigma and lack of encouragement. (For example how many women were karting as kids?) Those women who stick it out actually have an advantage in getting more sponsorship money even if they aren’t as talented as some of their peers. But yes, there have been great women drivers: The Ten Most Successful Female Race Car Drivers Ever

This is somewhat besides the point though. While the world sadly remains a sexist place, what you should be worried about is that a single gender is trying to claim an entire medium for themselves, and violently backlashes when people seen as “other” try to enjoy it. Just imagine if culture thought that reading books was only for women, even though this was something you loved to do since you were a boy. Or that publishers claimed that no boys would ever read books, but never bothered to check the statistics for it, and would never think of sending out early copies to test out to men. In the gaming world, The Last of Us had to explicitly ask for women play testers, this is absurd.

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To be fair to @toyg, this period can have been quite traumatic for some of us, and there are quite of few people who never get the chance to work through those issues and who actually see them continue in their lives (the jocks who were cruel to them end up becoming their managers/bosses, or people just like them). Just saying “get over it” is not really helpful. It’s a time in ones life that often helps to reinforce that sort of toxic worldview, especially around gender. And if we’re going to change our often retrograde gender norms, that’s one place to start as a society…

But I agree with pretty much everything else you said! :slight_smile:

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Sorry, that’s very true. Perpetuating bullying and exclusivism is never a valid solution though, and it should hopefully not follow you into adulthood, even if you unfortunately were on the receiving end of it. Recently, the top hacker news post was about the toxic culture seen in the Linux open source community, so this is a problem in other spaces too. https://plus.google.com/app/basic/stream/z13rdjryqyn1xlt3522sxpugoz3gujbhh04

Don’t be Liz Lemon. If you haven’t moved on, please seek some professional help to work it out.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean that certain situations and traditions are not there and don’t keep repeating year after year, including bullying and whatnot.

Anyway thanks for the ad-hominem, much appreciated as always. It’s incredible how “somebody who might be wrong on the internet” is so quickly branded a psychopath with issues that need professional help. This, from people who breathlessly extol the virtues of “safe spaces” and whatnot, on Boingboing! A place for freaks from freaks! And then you wonder why you can’t understand this or that group of people.

Jeez people. Have a good night, all you balanced and responsible adults, have fun reading the Guardian and getting a new mortgage now that rates are low.

I think you may be mischaracterizing people with your two types. While I agree that (1) and (2) exist, I think they’re a minority. I think the majority of misogyny comes from people who are ignorant (well, I have never seen a woman write excellent code so there must be no women who can do that) or misinformed (I read that the president of Harvard said women can’t do math).

There’s also a significant swarm-cloud of “metoos” and hangers-on who spout misogyny because they feel like it’s the accepted thing to do. For example, people who use “bitch” (or in other contexts “gay”) to mean something like “annoying” or “stupid”. These people, imo, are not actively trying to put down women but they see others using derogatory language and think that it’s OK for them to do it as well.

I think it does us a disservice to underrate the other side as only “spoiled brats” or “frustrated adolescents” and it leaves us no openings to sweep away detritus and bring in change.

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I think the people we are “branding” psychopaths are the ones who are hounding some women out of their houses, not all gamers or geeks… We are not branding them as such, they kind of are. if someone is critical of something, and there response is death and rape threats, the person issue these threats is the problem. Period.

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And yet, it’s not just the victims of childhood bullying (or even primarily) who perpetuate it… it’s usually the bullies themselves who continue with that behavior (although, as others have pointed out in this thread, abuse victims can often become abusers themselves). Our culture still rests on inclusivity and exclusivity, not just in subcultural spaces. It differentiates those who have cultural capital and those who don’t. I don’t think that pointing that out makes me mentally ill or anything, just observant.

And yes, pretty much any clique or subculture is going to police it’s subcultural borders, and that’s not always a positive thing, as in this case with gamer gate or the issues you mention with the FOSS community. But I can totally understand why it happens. What is upsetting about the gamergate stuff is that the victims are geeky girls and women, who much like their male counterparts, found a safe space within gaming and are being driven out because of their gender and their legitimate concerns about sexism.

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I’m not talking in generalities – I have not hounded anyone nor supported anyone who hounded anyone, but still I’m being told that I have issues to work through, with the typical tone of online bullies the world over. In a place which used to celebrate unhinged people of all sorts, from people who are supposedly fighting against bullies.

It would be ironic if it weren’t so sad.

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Well, you may have confused this to be about feminism, they are a subset of people involved, but its mostly about people not accepting behavior which they find abhorrent.