Ta-Nehisi Coates makes the case for reparations to Congress

It is really amazing to me how some people seem to try to make everything all about them, all the time.

IMO, that’s totally an intentional consequence of the government and big business covertly working together to intentionally dumb down the general populace for at least the last 60 years, if not even longer.

People who are easily distracted, intellectually lazy, complacent and/or willfully ignorant can be readily manipulated and controlled, in order to maintain the societal ‘status quo,’ at all costs.

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Ah, yes, I’d pleasantly forgotten about the “taxation is theft!” folks.

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They still want to strangle the government in the bath tub, unfortunately.

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If I had money, I would be delighted to pay taxes, but since the entire system has been rigged to force evermore Americans into poverty, and racism is one of the means of doing so, I and many other Americans cannot do so.

Blaming the poor for their victimizers’ actions is rather grotesque.

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Are you really trying to argue here that people who are poor can’t be racist or can’t benefit from a racist society? Or are you just saying that poor whites are the only real working class people? Either way, no one here is blaming any working class people for their plight. Saying that white working class people benefit from racism is not blaming them for their poverty. Rather it’s making important distinctions in how our class system functions and continues to divide people. Addressing both issues (race and poverty) needs to be done.

Not a single person here is arguing that we shouldn’t do anything for the working poor of any race. Many people here are supportive of that. That doesn’t mean we should ignore racism, especially since poverty intersects with race historical and today.

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I do not question that blacks suffer more in every way from racism as a group than whites. What I am disputing is the emphasis being placed on “reparations.” In sheer numbers, there are more poor whites than the entire black population. In sheer misery and the length of time of oppression, the Native Americans surpass any other American population. We are talking about reparations for them I have noticed. Only on the politically designated winners in the Victim Olympics.

Excluding the top tenth of the population, the entire American population has been getting worse off for several decades, but somehow black reparations are more important? Of course, this has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders, the growing interest in socialism, and the revitalization of the left at all. No dividing and conquering going on here.

Unless the focus is on all Americans, and I do mean all, this will only disunite reformers across the political spectrum and enable those now in control to maintain their control. Any reparations will merely be vacuumed up by those run this corrupt system, and the general black population will just as poor and oppressed as ever within a generation.

Furthermore, we are already likely to have civil unrest, even civil war, with a decade if things continue. How will reparations not make that much more likely?

So perhaps, just maybe, instead of focusing on the White Blood Guilt, we could work on making society work for everyone?

Triage.

You treat the gunshot and heart attack victims first. Doesn’t matter how many people are sitting in the waiting room at the ER. And if someone is there because they’re sniffling, then they’d better understand that it will be many hours before it is their turn.

To continue the analogy: poor white people might have bronchitis or a broken toe, but they’re not bleeding out.

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Which is not being floated as an alternative to other programs, but in conjunction WITH other programs, primarily because most the politicians floating such ideas are also offering other social programs to deal with the larger issue of poverty. Alleviating poverty ONLY, however, will not deal with the larger structural racism.

No one said “let’s help descendants of slaves AND IGNORE Native Americans”? You’re making that narrative up in your head.

Sanders and Warren both understand that there is an intersection of problems here that need addressing.

So, we can’t address specific issues, because it will cause jealously? Nah.

That’s… no…

tng-picard-more-facepalm

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Just where did you get the idea that I was only talking about poor white people?! When I talk about “the poor” I mean all the poor, unless I put the words “white” and “poor” together. I do think that not only are the poor as a group are invisible and that poor whites are even more discounted because they are “privileged.” If you are privileged yet poor, perhaps you are among the undeserving poor and therefore undeserving of anything but scorn. But then white supremacists blame blacks for their own oppression.

When I note the grotesquesness, it is of the Romney’s takers and Clinton’s Deplorables, or general blaming of increasing numbers of the poor on their supposed innate weaknesses for their plight. Somehow, in some curious way, millions and millions of people have decided to be poor in the past three generations. It just happened. It is like all those superpredators that Hilary Clinton said spontaneously arose in the 80s.

All those terrible, awful, irredeemable black teenagers just determined to be evil and that just had to be thrown into the law of the highly profitable Prison Industrial Complex. /s

I do think that race is used to distract from class. A use of identity politics to separate people so that the elites can remain the elites, which is why racism is never going to be dealt with as long as we have a strong class system in America. It is just too useful a tool. Much like abortion is. Dividing Americans into quarreling pro-choice and pro-life useful idiots suits the Democratic and Republican Parties just fine.

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You’re the one making it a Victim Olympics. Talking about reparations for slavery doesn’t mean shuttering any program or avenue of redress for other groups. You sound like you’d shut down a throat cancer charity because diabetes exists (and vice versa).

Reparations are another name for ways to repair and acknowledge generations of historical injustice that have specific effects today. If you want “total justice” than it means many programs, not pausing and waiting for one program that fixes every historical injustice with the same magic pill in the same size.

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Yet, you keep saying that reparations are in direct contrast with helping the poor.

You keep saying that, but no one here is discounting the white working class. None.

No one argued that here. None.

None of which anyone but your brought up or likely agree with. None.

No one here believes that. You’re building a strawman.

Class and race intersect. Race is a real driving force in history, like it or not. It works in conjunction with class. We can’t afford to ignore either of them.

African Americans have LONG been seperated out by the white power structure, which has often been reinforced by whites in other classes.

My right is bodily autonomy is not a fucking distraction. No matter if the powers that be are using it cynically, banning abortion has REAL CONSEQUENCES FOR WOMEN, ALL WOMEN. That’s not something to just ignore.

11th-doc-this|nullxnull

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Fuckin’ A; it’s not a competition.

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Okay, okaaay, I guess the blood guilt thing was a bit… strong.

I am still extremely suspicious of the whole reparations issue coming up when it would cause considerable damage to the nascent rebirth of the left. Somehow, in someway, when class and poverty start being debated racism and white privilege mysteriously do also. So white privilege and those horrible deplorables are mentioned when poverty and oppression is mentioned especially if the white population is too.

I remember when Republicans would start talking about “class warfare” whenever the increasing numbers of poor, or just struggling, Americans were mentioned about twenty odd years ago. Tax increases, social programs, just talking about the problem and the designated “conservative” would mention the designated “liberal’s” class warfare.

We can debate and agree, or disagree on reparations, but it is no accident that now reparations is a hot issue. That is just reality. There is no real intention to make it happen and if it did it ultimately would be used to destroy reforms and enrich the already wealthy for we are a very corrupt society run by incredibly wealthy elites. It is being used as a distraction. A political weapon upon which to beat the left and its reformers. Or for that matter, the right and its reformers.

There are plenty of reformers across the political, racial, class, and religious spectrum who hate the corruption, the greed, and the misery growing in this country. There are also many who want to prevent these reformers from uniting.

When one is hungry one does think all that clearly and when one’s family and suffer all the talk about fairness loses meaning. Perhaps if reparations had been done in the 1870s or even the 1970s it would have worked. That is no longer true.

Our society is under increasing stress and being increasingly transformed into a society of a large population of the poor, an extremely modest servant class, and a tiny ultra wealthy ruling class. I am not joking about the possibility of violence, which will happen if too many lose hope. We are on that edge just as we were in the 1850s when increasing numbers of Americans becoming hostile to the owning of human beings and a smaller population increasingly insisting that their “peculiar institution” was not only “a positive good,” but should be expanded.

So reparations are either DOA or will cause further oppression, poverty, and probable civil war unless and only if it is used simultaneously as reparations for the entire bottom 80% of Americans regardless of race. A modern successful version of MLK’s Poor People’s Campaign. One can demand that the centuries of racism be acknowledged and understood only when society as a whole is being helped. Then maybe, just maybe, we can have that dream fulfilled.

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Your bodily autonomy is used as a fucking distraction whether you want it or not. There plenty of people who are using as such. The seriousness of the issue merely means that it is a more useful tool for both parties to control you. As such neither the Democrats or the Republicans want the issue to be dealt with. That is what political corruption is. So getting angry at the messenger does no good. Get angry at the corrupt, greedy assholes doing the manipulation. Hell, that’s one of the reasons why we are having this chat.

Do you think that the leadership of NRA, or the two major political parties really care that much about guns? Really? A few do of course, but really is just another way to get exposure, donations, and votes.

How about Exxon knowing about Global Warming in the 1980s but chose to conceal their two decades of research into the possible collapse of the environment. They make more money now destroying civilization so they spent money for decades on climate change denialism.

Abortion, guns, poverty, our wars, climate change, the police, reparations, and racism are used by elites to remain the elites and by many to gain wealth. It is just the way it is.

John Bolton and his fellow warmongers in both of our parties are trying to start a major war with Iran because they think it will profit them and serve as a distraction from all the other evil shit that they are doing.

For them abortion is Tuesday.

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Yeah, no shit.

This has been an issue for decades. It’s just been ignored and laughed at by many whites, especially the elite class. And the very real world hurts of slavery and racism have been glossed over as existing in the past, when they are very much right here with us today.

Addressing economic issues means confronting social ones as well.

Because they are interconnected issues.

Stop conflating ham-fisted language and the very real privilege that white people do indeed have. It has nothing to do with being racist as an individual. It just means you have some benefits that you likely don’t think about. It doesn’t mean your life has been easy or that the problems you might face as a working class person aren’t real or don’t need to be addressed. It’s like people with money assuming that talking about wealth redistribution is about them personally, when it’s often not the case.

As are many other issues - the environment, women’s rights, LBGQT+ rights, student debt, homelessness - all of these need to be addressed and it’s not taking away from talking about class when we do address them.

Some of that is not caused by economic, but social issues.

You have no way of knowing that it won’t help. The reality is that racism exists, both in context with class and apart from it. Not addressing it has only caused it to fester. It will continue to fester until we address it.

It is happening right now. Kids are in cages. Kids are being shot. That is happening RIGHT NOW. That’s not just a class issue, but a race issue.

MY WHOLE GOD DAMN POINT IS THAT WE NEED TO DO BOTH.

Which also understood race was part of class.

No.

I am a real god damn person. I will not let you tell me otherwise. Taking away women’s rights to control their body will lead to second class citizenship. That takes nothing away from a discussion economic issues. There is no silver bullet and there is no making change without addressing all of these issues. If my freedom comes at the expense of yours, then they can take away yours just as easily. Issues on race and gender are the canary in the coal mine.

if you’re not with all of us, then you’re just out for yourself. You’re no alley if you’re willing to throw the rest of us under the bus to get yours. You’re no better than the elites you rail against.

kill-la-kill-mako-fuck-you

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Wow. It is not often this concept (or “race war”) gets trotted out in a liberal setting.

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Meh. Racism is and always has been bipartisan.

Again, I highly recommend the articles I posted above by James Baldwin…

Not like the people who need to read them will read them, but still.

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It’s always time for Baldwin.

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Um… Why are you quoting someone else’s words to me?

Real talk, @anon61221983

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