I’m sure some of that beard is neckbeard 
I’ve never read that passage from him, so I don’t know the context.
That would be she, and no, the handwriting isn’t what I was getting at. The note contains the kind of judgmental and body shaming I’ve come to expect and have been subjected to from other women over my 40-odd years. It takes a very special passive-aggressive man to write out a shame note, then hand it to a rather modestly dressed gal.
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Yep. Handwriting aside, this note reeks of catty passive-aggressiveness. I read this note as saying “you’re prettier than me and I hate you for that.” I can’t see a reason why any man would write a note like this. Then again, there’s a lot I don’t understand about overly religious university culture, so it could be a man.
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It could have been written by a woman, who then instructed a male friend to hand it to the woman. So, cowardly as well as judgmental…such Christian values!
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Having grown up in this culture and having been subjected to it myself, I can say this bullshit is not simply coming from insecure women. The honor code he is referring to is a contract that students must sign and agree to, and are punished if they violate it. Body shaming and policing is employed against women regularly by both genders. BYU recently made national news because it had been expelling and punishing girls who reported their own sexual assaults to the school. Several cases have come forward following this story.
When I was 15, I received a white satin hanger. I was told that it represented my “purity”, and that I ought not ever wear or do anything to soil it, because no man would want to put a white wedding dress on a dirty hanger.
A couple of years ago, the LDS magazine photo shopped sleeves onto a seven year old girl , seeing her sleeveless dress as too immodest for a church publication.
Here are some LDS quotes on modesty:
“Girls might not recognize that the physical display they create when they dress immodestly affects boys more than it does them. Help children, especially daughters, understand that attracting someone of the opposite sex solely by physical means does not create a lasting relationship.”
“Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said: “[Young women] need to understand that when they wear clothing that is too tight, too short, or too low cut, they not only can send the wrong message to young men.”
“Young women, respect your body and help others, particularly young men, maintain virtuous thoughts and actions. Respect your body, knowing that daily righteous living gives you eternal value.”
So yes, I can say that I am certain that a man wrote it, as male leaders wrote words above, and the behavior of this boy would have been applauded by those men.
Edit: poor formating
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That’s one way of handling those inconvenient rape allegations. I mean, they’re such bad PR for the university. That’ll take care of that bad PR, and there’s no way that this can backfire…
…oh. Right. That.
Ugh. Tired fucking metaphor.
I can think of several who would, and they’re a hell of a lot more fun than those who wouldn’t.
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“I hate to sound cynical, but you are basically human flypaper…” WHY is it always the self-professed moralists who have such trouble understanding responsibility for one’s own feelings and actions?!?
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Forgive me if need more clarification. What do you mean by human flypaper?
The words you have quoted are not mine, they are from Elder Holland. I wrote the second half of this post on my phone while on a ski lift.
I am sorry if I was unclear.
Sure, but I am happy to, so there is no forgiving necessary.
I mean the notion that one should always assume that they are dressing foremost for the pleasure of others. Those LDS quotes make one responsible for “attracting” people even when minding one’s own business. As if those attracted are devoid from any responsibility for their behaviors, or at least their responsibility is seen as at best secondary. It is such a prevalent attitude that most people in the US at least appear to not be aware or examine it.
It occurred to me from a young age as something of a casual nudist - typically not a practicing nudist, for pragmatic reasons. How there can be strong, even violent reactions to what is wearing (or not wearing) when others have no reason to look at oneself. For example, suppose I wear see-through clothes which cover me up and are hygienic. In many places it would be considered scandalous and punishable, that I am “provoking” a reaction from people who could instead choose to mind their own business. Like with any other clothing choice, if they don’t like it, they honestly don’t need to look. Or even if they do! They are still responsible for their own gaze and their behavior.
That is I think what this trend of moralizing about clothing amounts to. Punishing another person to save face for their own lack of self-regulation. The very idea that clothing can be “provocative” suggests reactionary attitudes.
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I wholeheartedly agree. And I believe that those attitudes remove responsibility specifically from men, and make women responsible for men’s thoughts and actions. And that is why the boy at BYU felt he could give that note to his fellow student.
Right, and worse, Madi Barney didn’t even report to the school. An officer at the police station knew her rapist and the staff Honor code office, and took it upon himself to turn the report over to the school.
She was expelled for sexual contact and being alone with a man. The official rhetoric was that even though the girls were raped, they had violated code rules and should be punished.
I know people who still argue that the code is in place to protect students, and that it stops rapes from occuring.
In truth, a situation is created in which rapists can use the threat of expulsion against their victims, as was the case with a gay boy who was blackmailed by another man.
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And was he expelled for sexual contact and being alone with a woman? Because either they were both there together – ignoring the violent crime for purposes of this argument – or they weren’t.
Yeah, I can guess what the answer is.
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Yeah, he was expelled because of the criminal report. But there are cases in which the girls did not file official police reports. The school does not investiage those, but they did subject the girls to honor code investigations and consequences.
They are in the process of making changes after the federal investigation.
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Thanks for the info!
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I thought that was the case where the male in question wasn’t a student? I might be mixing it up with another case. My MIL is ex-LDS and posts about this stuff a lot.
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That might be the case. Several stories came out at once, and I could be mixing details. I do remember that the man was older than Madi by a bit.
Edit: yeah, that guy wasn’t a student, but he would have also been expelled if he had been.
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They do. But I think that more generally they always put the responsibility upon The Other, whatever sex or gender they may be. Whomever transgressed that norm gets grief for it without any consideration for how that prevailing norm is better or justified. I have encountered men and women fashion police and sexual assailants.
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Of course that is true of people in general to varying degress in every culture depending on who you are.
This culture and these specific norms were my lived experience and it was a formative element in who I am today. It’s possible that I’m a little too passionate about it for that reason.
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Catcalling and street harassment is absolutely not biological. Neither are aggressive reactions to revealing clothing.
I was wearing this: http://i.imgur.com/LDenee1.jpg (cue BoingBoing aggressive side eye)
The people you see talking to me or politely asking for a picture simply recognized me. That was just because it was a tech event- normally no one says anything. I have dozens of hours of 360 video walking around my city wearing less- no one is hostile, no one tries to touch me, no one propositions me or says anything crude, no one but foreign women roll their eyes and say catty things. On occasion when these things happen here they are agreed to be perverts- outliers, no one thinks this is normal or biologically dictated behavior.
Westerners just have huge hangups about clothing and flatly refuse to believe their particular biases are not universal. Different cultures, read different things into revealing clothing and react differently.
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