They should speak up. There must be some in this thread, even.
It’s important, I think, when working to promote gender equality or women’s rights, that it doesn’t turn into a war on sexuality, a mark that Caroline Siede has missed by a mile. There are three very important points to make regarding her interpretation of nudity in Game of Thrones. First, regarding extras: extras are props. They are scenary. They are background. They are objects. Extras in television and film are objectified. So is Siede objecting to them being objectified in general or them being objectified as sexual objects. Let’s consider the scene in which the High Septom is presented with a selection of prostitutes. Would these women be any less sexually objectified if they were clothed, still as prostitutes of course but no longer nude? No, of course not. So its very clear that this isn’t about objectification of women, it’s about sexuality.
If this point needs more support then point two provides it. I am not a pervert for being sexually attracted to the nude female form. That blatant insult, that preemptive assault, that grotesque ad hominem belongs in the passages of some 80s Moral Majority rally pamphlet, not in any serious essay on the subject of sex or gender representation in the arts. Sexuality is not perversion, insulting people, trying to demonize them for expressing it is simply unacceptable. That turns this article into little more than a smear piece.
The final point, as an aside, is to try to remind people to put Game of Thrones into its proper context. I know that in their eagerness to justify enjoying the show, many rush to mistake competent casting and acting as deeper character and subtext, but the simple truth is that Game of Thrones is porn. People watch it for the violence, the constant stabbings and slashings and arrows sticking out of people. They watch it for revenge porn, eagerly waiting to see Joffrey poisoned or Janos beheaded. It is torture porn, as the show devotes practically hours of meticulous detail to exploring Theon’s painful comeuppance, (an especially nasty business that seemed, oddly, to draw almost no complaints from the audience at large.) And it is porn porn. Why would men or anyone be insulted that the show includes nudity for the sake of titillation as that is precisely why people watch the show in the first place. Enjoy Game of Thrones all you want but don’t lie about what it is. It is pornography and spectacle and that is why people enjoy it.
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Sooo… the only legit criticism that women get to make is to ask for more male nudity? Women should shut up about objectification and just start objectifying in the same way?
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Do you have something other than “your enjoyment of nudity is causing unspecified men elsewhere to harm us?”
The tone is lowering. Avoid cheap rhetorical recastings of one anothers’ positions for the sake of argument.
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Or a Critical UnFeminist!
I think @CarolineSiede raises some credible issues worthy of discussion. She doesn’t reject nudity out of hand, esepecially for the major characters, but she’s talking about the use of nudity that literally does nothing for the plot.
And actually there are plenty of pro-porn feminists out there. Why do you feel otherwise? And why do you get to decide what is a proper issue for women to address through a feminist lens? Are you the arbiter of what is and isn’t harmful to women? Does a little criticism of the show really impact your enjoyment of it so very much, that you feel the need to shut down the discussion?
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If that’s somehow directed at me, then maybe mindysan can state her position better. I think I was extremely accurate and anything but cheap.
He’s right, it is about puritanism, even if it’s dressed up as feminism. We have an author focussing on nudity in a very violent show. It’s a purely puritan mindset that views nudity as shameful, but has no problem with violence.
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If you say so. I don’t have an axe to grind, I just thought those with shorter memories than mine might like to see a previously published piece.
Can you explain your position again? My understanding of it is that my consumption of objectification in the media creates a climate of objectification for you in the world.
“So because men “evolved” to be sexually attracted to women, we shouldn’t point out the power dynamics involved in that and how it tends to lead to women being treated as objects?”
That’s not what what I meant at all, and you know it. See, this is why it’s so exhausting. There’s such a level of disingenuous moral posturing and fallacies on the internet. I’ll say it again, any points made in this editorial regarding women treated as objects can be considered perfectly valid, and I even agree with , however it says in the article: “…to simply stop encouraging its creators to appeal to perverts”. The implication of that sentence alone was what my comment was regarding. It has nothing to do with a ‘therefore we shouldn’t point out power dynamics’.
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Here’s the very first paragraph of what you’re responding to:
I want to be clear about the kind of nudity I’m talking about here: I don’t generally have a problem with the show’s main female characters disrobing … Nudity is a part of life and because the show has humanized and developed its main female characters the audience isn’t in danger of viewing them as just a body. Is it a bit weird that Melisandre takes her top off at the drop of a hat? Sure. But I’m willing to go with it because she’s a three dimensional character.
“this is just puritanism” often fails, I suspect, because those playing that card too obviously fail to read (or address) what they’re reacting to. It’s as if things are passing them by…
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All I have to add to this thread is a meta observation on the comments.
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Well, I think we all agree that the depictions of the Dagrons has been excessively puritanical. They don’t have consummate V’s or neck arms or anything.
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That’s a comment about the egregious lack of erect penises, right?
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Look… first, you SEEM to be dismissing the whole point, which is that the producers do encourage appealing to perverts with completely non-plot moving boobs (if that’s not what you meant, my apologies), which as you can see from the article, THEY HAVE ACTUALLY DONE THAT… Second, you alluded to some sort of biological imperative and SEEMED to completely dismiss the social construction of how we act out our sexuality, and how there is indeed a social dynamic to that. Sure, we have biological urges, but we also are social creatures, who have historically worked to rise above the baser in our search for personal and social meaning, for good or ill.
I do feel It’s a bit disingenuous of you to claim that we shouldn’t talk about this issue because “biology” and then call me out for pointing out that you’re completely being dismissive of some people’s criticism of the show…
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LOOK AT HIS MAJESTY!!! Drogon-dor!!!
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Perhaps more pointedly…
If you’re willing to pretend to have a position that you don’t actually hold just to accuse someone of shaming, why should anyone take anything you say seriously? In refusing to participate honestly, you’ve demonstrated that you’re more interested in point-scoring than in legitimate discussion.
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Not even Alberta has enough tar for that brush.
holy crap these comments are coming fast and furious…
And yet, in the very first episode we have a (doomed) Stark performing a beheading, and spending nearly as much (if not more?) time discussing with his son the reason for personally performing this action – essentially so that a Lord doesn’t get removed from the nitty-gritty, and understands the repercussions of his actions, and takes personal responsibility for it.
Such talky-time has not been, over the entire run of the rest of the series, to any presentation of nudity.
Much is made, as the show goes on, of little Arya coming to grips with the uses of weaponry, what it means to kill, and how personal it is, when removed from the abstract.
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