TL;DR: Mueller is of the controversial but widespread opinion that a sitting President cannot be charged with a crime and thus deferred to congress to decide whether or not Trump’s actions warranted impeachment and removal based on the information he uncovered.
Along the way a shit-ton of Trump’s associates were charged and convicted of serious crimes due to the findings of the investigation.
It speaks poorly of the public’s attention span, gullibility and reading comprehension that anyone remembers the findings of the Mueller investigation as a vindication of Trump.
No. I think the US, China and the RF (among others) spend resources in trying to encourage domestic dissent and unrest in competitor powers. Machiavelli discusses it, at length. The approach is as old as states themselves. In fact, Professor Michael Hudson notes that when antique powers would attack competitor cities, they would usually offer to forgive the debts of the citizens, to undermine the will of debtors to resist.
The US has at least two media operations focused on delegitimizing the Russian government to its citizens and a whole bunch of “civil society” organizations (NED, Soros etc) which are also focused on the same. I am make no judgement on whether these efforts are “moral”. Just saying that trying to foment rebellion is an age old tactic and there is absolutely no evidence that Russia ever stopped doing it. Or for that matter that they applied additional resources to it recently. The same can be said about China and Uighurs. I dont know how oppressive China is to its Uighur population, but I have doubts about the US really caring so much about Muslim human rights.
Other US career bureaucrats have told lies in the past. You might be right, and the evidence might be persuasive. But surely we should focus on the evidence and not reputations? One might think US career bureaucrats have the best interests of the US as their priority, rather than the truth itself.
I’m trying to imagine a world where a US bureaucrat concluded "no, there was nothing there and an important US politician mendaciously lied about the RF wrong doing. It would have been quite a problematic conclusion to have drawn. It would be like a Russian court finding Putin guilty of corruption. What troubles me is that no one was prosecuted in open court? The key prosecution of the Internet Research Agency was aborted when it required the US to present evidence. Purportedly because it would have revealed intel secrets.
But I’m often wrong, and I don’t see why this isnt another one of those times. I will go away and read Mueller. Of course, I will read it with a biased eye, cos I have preconceptions which its always hard to override.
RF is very heavily armed. So is the US. That’s not a reason to push for adversarial relations with the RF. Not unless you own a lot of Defense stocks. Which btw have performed wonderfully over the last 5-10 years.
Its precisely cos Putin has a very large holding in Novotek that I chose to own the stock.
Well, be aware that the guys who held stock in Ozymandias Industries also thought their stock would never go down.https://www.reuters.com/business/deputy-chief-russias-novatek-says-he-will-fight-us-tax-charges-2021-09-26/
Gazprom and Yukos are also important lessons, if you’re interested in how Russian fossil fuel companies may change in terms of ownership. Also, I’d question the long term viability of the fossil fuel industry as a whole. Whaling was considered an irreplaceable activity that mined an unlimited resource, until it suddenly wasn’t.
So it does sound like you are open to the idea of WikiLeaks acting as an intelligence asset of Russia, as this would be a common thing for Russia to do, as you say yourself. So maybe let’s refocus on how the hacked DNC email leaks, etc. reflect on WikiLeaks as a highly likely intelligence asset of Russia rather than how they reflect on Russia, which is not going to get us very far.
ETA: I am not sure at this point if you are arguing from a pro-Russia stance, a strongly pro-Wikileaks stance or simply a “so what, everyone does it” stance. Could you clarify this, as I am not sure whom you are actually defending. If you simply don’t believe that all of these well-documented things happened in 2016, could you explain where these doubts concerning the accusations of Mueller, the Senate Committee and the entire intelligence community come from?
I used to own quite a lot of Gazprom. I dont anymore but I wish I did!
Its always possible to lose money. An occupational hazard. Thank you for your concern.
Yukos no longer exists. But I do own Rosneft, which is also doing quite well right now. Some people will tell you that Mikhail Khordorkovsky is a dissident and a campaigner for open government. I’m so old I remember the allegations of multiple murders and the loan for shares scheme he participated with Bank Menatep. A scheme that was concocted with US participation and US advisors designing it. The net effect was a disaster for Russian citizens, but an astonishingly profitable opportunity for the Western Banks who got involved. From memory the banks loaned Yeltsin money for his campaign, and Yeltsin put up key stakes in the biggest enterprises in Russia as collateral for the loans. He then failed to repay them so Misha picked up Yukos (this biggest oil company in Russia) for $120mn (from memory). The best part of it was that the money the banks lent came from the IMF loan, and when the government passed it to the Banks it meant the government couldnt pay government employees salaries. Yeltsin was the West’s candidate. If it wasn’t for that Western “assistance”, Russia would have been spared its collapse, and all the looting that followed.
The Russians ought to be very angry at the US. A minimum of 187 people were killed when Yeltsin’s soldiers open fire on unarmed protestors who had flocked to the White House to defend it from a Yeltsin security cordon preventing the legislators from communicating with the outside world. Russian legislators had impeached Yeltsin. Yeltsin opened fire on the building with tanks.
And you tell me the Russians interfered in US elections? Terrible I’m sure.
I don’t expect the Russians to be upset that Putin has been undermining US elections with the active cooperation of American citizens and elected officials.
I expect Americans to be upset that Putin has been undermining US elections with the active cooperation of American citizens and elected officials.
Pro Russia? Why would it matter whether I am pro or anti? Don’t get it. I am anti war. But I’m not Russian. Russian internal affairs are a matter for the Russian people. I’m not in favor of the scale of Western defense budgets. It simply a form of corruption.
I don’t think interfering in another countries affairs is either odd, or a casus belli. If it was, then the RF would have nuked the US years ago. Its common. It happens all the time. The outrage is misplaced and silly. They interfered in our elections? So what (if they did)?
The better question is whether or not their interference mattered. If it did, why were they so successful this time? Are they more skillful now, or was the US just more vulnerable to this? Is it cos of some of the properties of social media?
But I will tell you what it wasnt. It wasnt cos Wikileaks published material. No one who voted for Trump did so cos of Wikileaks. The assertion is absurd. Most of them can barely read, and the Republicans who can read wouldn’t have changed their minds cos of Wikileaks.
Was Wikileaks a knowing conduit for Russian intel? I dont know. I personally doubt it. For one, doing so is incredibly dangerous and liable to lead you to spend a long time confined in a small space. But its a good question and I would like to look at the specific evidence. Not the conclusions in the Mueller Report. But I don’t know precisely why Mueller concluded Wikileaks was in contact with the GRU. Or it maybe confidential. But rather than argue about something I havnt studied I think I should defer and go and take a look at the report. If there is a link you could recommend for the original but updated report, I would be grateful.
To directly answer your question, if I were defending anyone it might be Wikileaks. RF doesnt need my support. If anything we need to be protected against those who would agitate for war. What if they got what they wanted? Which of us does not live near a US airbase aka target?
Now forgive me. Im planning to take a long trip during the rest of this afternoon. Hopefully it will be colorful.
You know, I think our positions are closer than I had first thought.
I dont care about guilt or innocence. I don’t even care that much about the fate of millions of innocent and perfectly pleasant LGBQT+ Russians. I care about whether 10s of millions or maybe even 100s of millions of people die cos of some dumb miscalculation about which country is economically and/or militarily dominant. Me, personally, I am seriously considering buying a bolt hole somewhere like Argentina or Mexico. I guess Im more nervous about where all this pointless US belligerence is leading. The Athenians were also sure they were in the right. But when I read the Melian dialogue I have my doubts.
So no, I don’t even hate Americans (despite the whole native american/slavery/civil rights thing). My kids are Americans and so is my wife. Its just that I was hoping all of them would survive to a ripe old age.
If the Russians could put you under a fascist dictatorship, what makes you think they wont do it again? Maybe we should be nice to them for fear they will put Melania or Jared in charge of you next time?
Sometimes, you kind of have to take responsibility for being a crap country. Same as the Russians do. The RF and China don’t have to behave how you want them to, just as the US doesn’t have to behave how the Russians and Chinese would like them to. If its so easy to subvert your government then you should probably fix that and not constantly carp on about it. Is it all better now? Or will they have just as much success if they do it again? If they did it again how should the US respond?
What exactly would you like to do to the RF (and the innocent LGBQT+ who just happen to live there) that the US hasn’t already done? We want to unseat Putin? Fine, but not much point whining when he reciprocates. Well apart from the possible advantages for domestic politics.
Arms race? War? Sanctions? What do you propose?
And the funniest thing is the new US administration has already decided to chill out over Russia and focus on the threat the Chinese pose. You might just be fighting the last propaganda war.
For what little my crappy opinion is worth (as usual).
Why are they more important than Russians living under oppression right now?
But you’re okay with RF belligerence, apparently. Especially if it’s aimed at women or gay people there. What’s one more dead woman or gay man, after all.
We nearly ARE under one and it’s not the fault of the Russians, it’s of the American people (a minority of them) but Putin very much did and does all he can to help that along. He very much wants an America that looks like modern Russia - one where women are second class citizens and gay people “don’t exist” but are thrown into gulags.
The fact that you don’t know that I and many others regularly criticize my own country shows just how blinkered you are about the community here. Many of us can hold two thoughts in our heads at the same time, and many of us bust our ass to improve our country’s foreign policy behavior and the lot for those of us who have historically been disenfranchised. That does not excuse Putin one iota.
So election interference is justified, because America does the same.
But hey, better to live in a global fascist world, apparently, as long as those of us who you’ve decided are the real problem are dealt with, right? Maybe a concentration camp under Trump won’t be so bad. After all, I’m the REAL problem here, because I did not single handedly stop American empire. I deserve whatever I get, so does everyone in America…
I didnt catch what it was you propose to do about it? Is the idea to maintain a hostile stance designed to damage their economy and threaten their interests till the Russians get rid of Putin? How’s that working out for all of us? I read that we are about to “invest” in a next generation updating of our nuclear deterrent. Great! I’m long of uranium stocks!
The relevant phrase in the Melian dialogue is “The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must”. The US meddles in other countries internal affairs cos they can. If RF does the same it will be for the same reason.
And I don’t understand why a hostile stance toward the RF helps you avoid living in a fascist America? I dont even understand why you have the impression I am criticizing you. I just think the policy of hostility towards RF is dumb. And so does Jake Sullivan as far as I can tell. The new enemy is China. Didn’t you get the memo?
Criticizing it isnt the point. What is the solution? Im going out on a limb here, but I dont think Putin cares whether he is excused. But lets agree that he is excused and a really bad man. What next? US is profoundly divided. Putin is a very bad man. Russians are being oppressed (silly - we are all being oppressed). So what to do?
Shall we keep being mad at them till they do better? Economic sanctions? More weapons? Proxy wars which kill other people’s kids? Lets hold three things in our heads at the same time. 1) We dont like Putin. 2) The US is crap 3) What to do about it?
And the key thing is number 3 is not Putin’s problem.
Yup. You go fight for them. I wont stand in your way. I’m not sending any of my kids to fight Russians to save Russians from other Russians. Anymore than I would like Russians to send Russians to fight Americans to save Americans. Its nuts.
Some of those gay Russians have straight brothers, fathers, sons, that they dont want killed. Im not sure they would consider it a net positive to have their relatives die even if they were liberated from the pretty nasty environment they live in. I would definitely shoot the Saudis homophobes before I shoot Russian homophobes. Less downside.
I have absolutely no time or respect for R2P. Its just an excuse for imperialism dressed up as concern tourism, IMHO.
Well the lesser evil. Causing the death of 100mn is worse than leaving 10s of millions under oppression. Besides, you still havnt explained what it is you want to do to help Russians.
And then there is my selfish desire to keep my wife & kids alive. I know its wrong, but you aint gonna persuade me to prioritize anyone in Russia over them. I’m selfish like that.
And then finally there is that pesky Westphalian doctrine. I just think its safer
How do we benefit by pretending that Putin isn’t a murderous thug who is actively working to empower fascist elements in the United States in order to delegitimize and destabilize our government?
“Sometimes, you kind of have to take responsibility for being a crap country”
It’s all relative. For example- people in post Brexit Overseas Territories like BVI and the Caymans are looking at major supply chain problems and can’t fall back on any local food production. They lost a seat in the EU. They lost part of their coverage as a tax haven - with more of that to come. They’re going to have a hard border within the Caribbean- so no freedom of movement there or with the EU.
Smaller non countries like that are going to be hammered going forward. And their colonial sponsors will be too busy to worry about them going forward. An unstable little island doesn’t look like a great place to stash one’s ill gotten gains.
And are the people who have historically been victims of oppression also equally responsible for the crimes of their state? Are people who are consistently discuss crimes of their government equally responsible? Is Noam Chomsky at fault as much as me for not single-handedly fixing American empire?
Even in a democracy (which is faltering, thanks in part to Putin), not everyone is equally responsible for what the government does, especially when that government covers up much of what it does and lies about it. And this is what pisses me off the most about assholes like Assange (to bring it back on topic). That he’s taken a necessary project (whistling blowing) and has made it all about him. He’s managed to muddy the waters, which has done irreparable damage to the thousands of people who are seeking to reveal government corruption, local and national, and international. Thanks to Assange and his willingness to embrace autocrats like Putin, the US government feels absolutely justified in cracking down on whistleblowers. It will take years to undo the damage that he did to a more transparent society.
If a connection could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in open court I expect DoJ would have charged it. There is public info that is suggestive that Assange at best doesn’t care if he does Russia’s dirty work:
giving Israel Shamir privileged access to leaked documents
arranging travel for Snowden so that he ended up in Moscow
the whole 2016 election business
2017 plans by Russia to exfiltrate him from the embassy
And that’s just what I can think off the top of my head. That may not be definitive, but that’s certainly enough to make me not trust Assange with anything I’d want to keep away from the GRU.
