Trump's civil fraud trial begins in New York

The case is a bench trial, meaning it will be decided not by a jury but by Judge Engoron. He has said it could take as long as three months to hear the case.

The judge after three months of Trump’s talking…

Bill Murray Film GIF


Not Judge Cannon, though.



He really has nothing else to try…it’s about as open and shut a case as there can be from a legal standpoint.

Legally, it boils down to two questions: 1) Did Trump overinflate his asset values in financial statements? and 2) Did he use these documents for business purposes?

The clear answer to both of these questions is a resounding yes. Everything else is irrelevant. It’s why the judge granted the prosecution’s request for summary judgement. There’s really no defense as to the legality as that’s all that’s required in order to constitute fraud under New York Executive Law 63(12).


Maybe not, but even if some of them feel a mild distaste for Trump he’s still their guy, and they really hate the other guy, his party, and all that he stands for, so that’s OK.


Off to a good start…


(The label was just synchronicity.)


Good, but technical, catch needs more @beschizza


I gotta say, I love the Honorable Paul G. Feinman Ceremonial Courtroom. Those murals are gorgeous.


As someone who co-pissed off a Judge (me and my ex in our divorce case, we kept slogging at each other War of the Roses style, finally made us attend a status hearing and ripped us each a new one), believe me it is NOT a comfortable place to be, and I have gone out of, and will continue to go out of my way to never, ever piss off a Judge. It’s just not worth it.



Who was harmed by this overvaluation? I’m hearing claims that all loans or agreements to pay obtained with these false valuations were paid. Given this is Trump, that’s a good outcome.

The lenders were. Even if they were paid, they might have had more lucrative uses for the money. That was money that could have been used elsewhere, and wasn’t, because of fraudulently-valued collateral.

Let’s put it this way: You and I are playing poker. I’m out of chips, so I put my Rolex into the pot in order to call your bet. I win, but it turns out the Rolex was fake. Did I cheat? Of course I did!


Well, the American public, for one, since when he then undervalued properties, he paid less in taxes… and as @DukeTrout noted, lenders, among others.

This is a crime. Can we not dismiss it, just because it’s a white collar one.


Also they likely would have charged more interest on Trump’s loans in the first place if they had truly understood the financial risk they were undertaking.

Meanwhile regular borrowers were paying much higher interest rates because they couldn’t secure their loans with imaginary assets.


I Mean Law And Order GIF by SVU


Seeing in photos how Trump is grandstanding outside the courtroom, it’s kind of like some surreal reboot of The Untochables, but it’s set in New York, Trump is the villain in DeNiro’s spot, and he’s watching The Simpsons instead of Pagliacci.


that’s his defense. that no one was harmed. even if it were true ( which as @DukeTrout and @Mindysan33 point out it is not, he has harmed people ) - it’s still fraud

if i rob a bank, gamble the money on slots, happen to win, and return the money but keep the difference - i still robbed a bank and i shouldn’t be surprised if i wind up in prison.

bernie madoff, bankman-fried, the lovely folks at enron - they all engaged in financial fraud and got caught because eventually the gambling will fail to pay off. ( and ■■■■■ has gone bankrupt how many times? )

so the law for fraud doesn’t require someone be hurt, only that you’ve lied and deliberately misrepresented your finances. proving harm isn’t necessary, because it’s inevitable


You’d think that would be the case, but I can’t find any mention of the lenders bringing a case against him.

If you want to use your Rolex example, it would seem none of the players complained but the gaming hall manager said you can’t play there any more.

Only so far as I can tell no harm came from this instance. Is the purpose of this case to avoid future harm?

Fraud certainly seems to be involved, but I can’t find any mention ( at least in a form shorter than the full indictment ) of why this came up in the first place.

robert downey jr bullshit GIF