Urban living and carbon footprints

Yes, biking is about 4-5x less energy use.

Some better broken down USDA 2010 data:
http://www.resilience.org/stories/2013-07-22/the-energy-cost-of-food

Per calorie of food, after accounting for waste and spoilage, but not accounting for waste disposal and water provision, the USDA says it is actually 12:1 not 10:1. Of that 12, 1.6 is agriculture, 2.7 is packaging and transportation, 4.3 is wholesale, retail, freight, and “food services” (aka professional food prep), and 3.4 is home energy use (fridge, freezer, cooking) and personal food travel (going to/from grocery stores and restaurants).

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I’m not sure how Amazon arranges things, and whether that particular point holds.

How well distributed are Amazons warehouses? If I have to drive an entire car to the nearest store that carries the thing I want, just for that purchase, or I can have Amazon ship it to my door using shared delivery infrastructure, the marginal extra fuel consumption from that shipment might actually be smaller than getting myself to a store that’s same-city local but not walking-distance local.

That said, don’t get me started on the trajectory my barbecue took to reach my house.

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I agree with you overall, but I wanted to challenge one minor point: having Amazon deliver everything.

I live in an apartment complex that’s serviced by a UPS truck once a day, around 1 PM. That truck comes to my complex whether I order something from Amazon or not. On the other hand, if I want to buy something from a nearby store, I have to get into a car and drive 2 to 5 miles.

There are marginal fuel costs incurred every time I order something online: it has to get shipped via boat, plane, or truck to any number of intermediate destinations. But those same fuel costs are incurred when I buy something from a local store, because the product has to get to the store. If I order from Amazon, the product comes to me on the truck that arrives daily. If I buy something from a store, I have to get into my far less fuel-efficient vehicle, and get it from the store.

In that sense, I think that ordering from Amazon is far more efficient than buying from a store. Is there a hole in my logic?

I agree that it would be a different story if I lived in a detached residence like a house, which might not be serviced by a UPS truck daily. Then again, it might still be more efficient for a UPS truck, loaded with other deliveries, to serve my house than for me to get into my own vehicle and drive it to a store with a single purpose. As it is, I try to wait until I have several reasons to go to the shopping center (with its string of big box stores) before I get in my car – not just for fuel efficiency, but also for time efficiency and sanity.

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We’re talking about the environmental impact of living in cities vs. elsewhere. @anon67050589 wanted to comment on the environmental impact aspect – specifically to compare “living in the city” to “not eating meat”. That seems totally legitimate and on-topic to me. Suppose we were discussing yet another police brutality story and someone mentioned a friend getting beat down by mall rent-a-cops. Someone could always respond “we’re talking about the police, not rent-a-cops” to shut them up but does that pass the smell test?

Vegetarianism is usually at least in part the result of applying a moral calculus – i.e. vegetarians usually believe that being vegetarian is morally better than not being vegetarian. People with moral commitments like that tend to talk about them and there’s no shortage of that in the bbs here. I suspect I’d find a fair amount of it in your comment history if I bothered to look. You have different moral commitments than vegetarians do. But simply having different moral commitments doesn’t invalidate what they have to say.

It’s strange how personally you seem to take just the mention of vegetarianism:

It seems like you’re actually getting a little defensive. Maybe you have this little inkling that vegetarianism really is morally better than the alternative and you don’t like people talking about it because it makes you feel bad about yourself?

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Because he’s so eminently quotable and so regularly lambastes pastoral idealism and cracker barrel romanticism, have a bit of Meades:

“Anti-urbanism is at best crankish, at worst a springboard to horror. Like all reactionary hot air—back to basics, traditional values, that sort of tosh—it should be fit only to be mocked.”

Jonathan Meades, Jerry Building, 8:50

Also in there around 13:00:

“At Ravensbruck, the Deaths Head Corps, the SS, drove slaves and burnt bodies by day before retiring to their gemutlich houses to play cheerfully with their families, as though they had just done a normal day’s work… which of course they had. Nothing that the supposedly decadent cities threw up has ever compared in evil to what happened in the small towns and boondocks of Germany.”

Also of note are Joe Building, his take on Soviet architecture under Stalin, which touches briefly on the early Soviet state’s employment of western anti-urbanist planners, and his episode on Letchworth Garden City, which is, as you might imagine, not complimentary.

For my circumstances, I consider Amazon to be the earth-friendly way for me to acquire goods. I live in the sticks. I commute to an in-town job where we accept daily deliveries from most major shipping companies. I believe a single truck carrying goods for many people is more efficient than each of those folks traveling by car to various local shops.

It pains me to consume gas every day to travel to a job that I could likely do just as well from home but for now, I can at least cut out trips around town for miscellaneous goods.

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Better to be an omnivore and live in a city – there is a ready supply of vegan-meat and meat-meat right outside ones door… I would worry about the supply of fava beans and Chianti.

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But population growth is the side of the equation that’s already been fixing itself, albeit slower than some people would like. If current trends continue we may see peak population before the middle of this century. Meanwhile per-capita consumption has been steadily growing at a much more alarming rate, particularly in the developed world.

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Don’t have kids, live in a city, don’t own a car, and I’m vegetarian. Feeling a bit smug right now.

But I feel bad about that, if it helps.

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…And THIS is why vegans can’t have a conversation about the carbon reduction benefits of living in an urban environment; no matter what the topic, it becomes all about the meat. Eventually it’s all about which veg is better than the others, or whether raw is better than cooked; “Ew, you’re still eating cooked eggplant? Do you know how much that kills the earth compared to eating raw celery!?”

Or better, having kids and eating them.

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I think there is some loss of perspective in both article and discussion.
It seems to me that the main argument for defending that living in a city is more efficient, is that people living there dont need a car and use less gas than people in the country.
More efficient for what ? There are an awful lot of externalities that are not considered, starting by forgetting the very basic needs of every human being : food, water, and waste.
Yes a city is very efficient in it’s use of space as housing, but it is terribly inefficient at producing food, getting water, and recycle waste.
So inefficient that it is totally depend to external food sources and has to expel it’s waste because it cannot recycle it.
Lets get to the argument of the “cars” and gas use. Where does the “Average Vermonter gas use” figure comes from ? Since it is not specified it may really be that it is simply the gas use of Vermont divided by it’s population.
Gas and transportations are used for production and in the country the main product is food. Food is mainly (65%-70% ?) for people, and most of the population lives in urban areas.
So urban areas are the main client of the country to sell food. Food doesnt just appear in the cities but needs logistics (and packaging) to be transported there. And that will use gas and cars and trucks and boats,…
Probably, most of the gas that is used in the country is actually paid by someone living in a the city.

So the argument of "new yorkers do not own cars " is pretty much like saying that you do not own a car and do not need it (but omitting that you really depend on someone who has it and brings you food). If you want to compare the carbon footprint of someone in the city, you should consider the carbon footprint of those whom he depends on.

It could be interesting to know how much energy has been spent to build a city by it’s population and compare building costs per capita with country houses… if anyone would like to make calculation :slight_smile:

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To be fair, some tourists haven’t seen those before. Here in Portland, OR our tallest building is only 78 stories (we have another building with 80 stories, but by height it’s actually slightly shorter.)

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That’s totally unfair. It’s only 7.2 million nasty people. 800,000 are quite nice.

Full stop at “city is more efficient” Individuals not requiring an auto don’t necessarily use less gas, nor does lacking necessity prevent them from buying autos. Houston, TX is a city of 5 million or something & everyone drives.

But even that city which is practically all suburban is more efficient at getting water, recycling waste, distributing food/goods, services & basic shelter than those same 5 million people would be if they were spread out in some vast rural setting. Where they would produce their own food? Or something?

My household produces food, I’m rural. The buildings on our spread were essentially built by the previous inhabitants with only some help from specialists like electricians/plumbers.

I suppose if I stopped there it’d support some of the contentions present?

But I can’t stop there. We have services, propane & wood delivery, electricity etc. Well water, but 160’ wells don’t get dug by homesteaders & require electric pumps or a lot of manual effort to utilize.

Our roads, which we drive on, must be maintained. Okay, so until I’m almost at the highway it’s a gravel road for me, but that still needs a grader & additional aggregate several times a year, which requires a water truck to keep the dust down, & in the winter it requires a plow. My particular gravel road is 10-12 kilometers servicing less than 100 people on 50 or so spreads over thousands of acres. Each spread has at least a quarter kilometer lane or road to the main residence, usually more, sometimes much more if there are remote outbuildings.

When we drive we go to get all the things we don’t grow or raise or craft ourselves. That’s like, everything. I’m 25 kilometers from a store, any store, or gas. In rural speak we might say “Only 25 kilometers”.

We all have trailers to hitch to our cars or trucks or can borrow one to go & get tons of goods that had to be shipped from cities to reach us.

It’s not all doom & gloom. My place has a nice solar array, a solar water heater, underground cold storage, Canada’s lack of any need for air conditioning & even though we aren’t ourselves farmers we have lots of fruit trees, a huge garden producing you-name-it & we can a lot of it for winter, chickens, soon to have bees. So we do produce some of our own heat & electricity, bushels & bushels of food as well as eggs & some meat (free range forage, doesn’t even require a ton of chicken feed).

The woodlots on our spread produce way more than we need for heating, but the way things work is that it is better for me to pay a proper woodsman to bring 3-4 cords of seasoned, split wood in the back of a huge dumptruck. Then all I have to do is spend a day stacking it, instead of spending a week or more chopping & splitting & storing every year so that after 3 years I could have proper seasoned wood of my own each year.

Telling ya, held against what we consume & the extra trouble to consume it all here & I’m telling you: Cities are efficient.

Let’s not put aside either what I -don’t- have, at least not without driving much, much further.

City-class theatres, universities, medical complexes, museums, it’s a long list but it boils down to the benefit of people, together.

Specialists in our society, only possible through food production that must be successful enough to produce a surplus that can support specialists, social & political strata, non-food-producing minds & bodies that explain how we went from hunter-gatherers covered in fleas to creatures capable of space travel in a scant 15,000 years.

Impossible without cities. The scientific advancements that allow modern food production to support so many persons per farmed acre were primarily a result of cities, not farms.

I would say that if we abandoned cities to live a clean that never was we would also be abandoning the one slim hope we have of evading the all the trouble we cause: the next technological breakthrough.

Microbes → People → Cities
Centralization works at every level.

BTW cities can & do outperform rural on recycling per person due to higher participation/compliance rates.

In developed countries, food is mainly for food. Only a small percentage gets to people. Scroll up & I’ll bet a vegan or something has pointed out x wastage/GHG per calorie or x pounds of grain = 1 pound of protein. Srsly, our food eats way more than we do.

In closing, I agree, I could have a lower carbon imprint than any city dweller if I chose too.

But I’m no Charles Ingalls & not even the Amish or Shakers or Mennonites or any other group can claim a individual footprint smaller than a true urban dweller that practices/tries to practice conservation, of which there are more every day & more needed.

None of my neighbours, some of which are hardcore hippies, will be trading in their Vanagons for buckboard wagons & only going to town once a month or less.

& if the 5-6 million urban people within 500 or so kilometers of me tried to leave the city… they better turn south or something…

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But at least those strawmen provide plenty of fiber!

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The issue of diet (vegan vs omnivorous) is orthogonal to the issue of urban vs pastoralism. Injecting the environmental impacts of veganism into a discussion of the environmental impacts of the urban/pastoral issue is a non-sequitor, and injecting your personal pet issue into a different discussion.

There are plenty of urban vegans. There are plenty of pastoral vegans. The question is: between the two, which have, on a per capita basis, less of an environmental impact? Especially if the two are trying to maintain comparable standards of living?

By not having kids, you would avoid adding a drain on the system, true. But if you raised kids on a low carbon footprint and the kids turn out ok, the world ends up better off.

I see way too many childless couples us this as an excuse to consume as much as they want since they have no stake in anyone’s future.

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I stopped eating critter when I was 11. This is a common reaction that I’ve observed over the past 30-ish years. The base assumption is that someone who chooses to leave flesh out of their diet has some overbearing (in every sense of the word) reasoning that they will share with you, solicited or not. I’m won’t defend this reaction, but I’ve come to expect it, and simply don’t bother to mention my diet unless it’s necessary to do so.

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Agreed – Carbon impact of animal agriculture is not discussed enough. Of course you can also be a car-less vegan, these approaches are not mutually exclusive.

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Cornell says 4:1 for chicken, and astounding 54:1 for beef

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat

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