US AIR STRIKES HIT DAMASCUS - Trump announces Syria air strikes in response to chemical attack

Occam’s’ razor and all that. If the targets were supposed to be chemical weapons plants, then I can’t say that isn’t a bad target to hit. Unlike conventional violence where civilians are either caught in the middle or some times targeted, chemical weapons are indiscriminate.

But again, I am not 100% defending the action, but I can’t completely condemn it either. I think my over arching point is the action itself is something I can see us doing regardless of who is in the White House. But I do agree Trumps tweets and statements about it are atypical.

No you aren’t; it is a glitch that the BBS does sometimes.

That is a fair point, but blaming it on a hypothetical pipe line isn’t really doing that point any favors.

You know, you seem to champion the little guy a lot, so that statement rings rather harsh. Violence against political rivals is unacceptable. It isn’t just political rivals, but religious and cultural minorities who get disappeared, tortured, and killed as well. Of just persecuted and discriminated against.

You’re right, these authoritarian regimes are pleasantly stable enough for the West and others to deal with them. I have said many times in that past we are OK with dictators if they play ball. But even when I was at my most Machiavellian I am not sure I would support the idea of a brutal dictator is better than people trying to live under a different system because less people were being killed. I guess if fascism does actually take over here I should lay back and go with it, as it would be less messy.

That said, I agree that American Liberation isn’t the answer. I don’t know what the answer is. Actually, I sort of do. I propose having a mass sit down and redraw country lines based on the people who live there, not how it was divided up post colonialism. But that may not work either.

The stats I saw showed they had lost a lot more men and equipment on the Saudi side than the Yemenis, but they are also old figures so maybe they are doing much better. Better equipment won’t help you if you can’t use it unless ordered.

The Saudi build up s a double edged sword, because while they want to exert more military power, the strong the military the more capable a coup would be. Hence one of the reasons the Saudis have swung away some from the clerics (who they were appeasing with their stricter laws) and started a slow series of reforms. I read they are going to show Black Panther in actual theaters there.

1 Like

Yes. That’s the problem.

Trump’s America is not new. It’s just more obvious now.

5 Likes

Looks like a useful contribution to the debate.

3 Likes

And another…

1 Like

Speaking of Islamism…

2 Likes

“Have you seen my pocket? It is way too small for a person to fit in there. Perhaps a mouse… but why would I have a mouse in my pocket? This is all silliness.”

5 Likes

I mean when one side is defending a man who responded to people unhappy at his mismanagement of a drought with bullets and starting a civil war…

A lot of chemical weapons break down when exposed to sunlight. Rather quickly, actually.

Exactly what I mean. There were reports from a local Dutch Catholic priest in Syria, that some of the protesters had been heavily armed, foreign, and had started firing at the police from within the demonstration. That particular Dutch Catholic priest was killed (some reports suggest by Islamists), but I will try and look up the report. Interestingly, there are similar reports from the Maidan protest in Ukraine. Indeed some Georgian snipers were interviewed on Italian TV claiming that they had been asked by Sakashvili to open fire from rooftops on both the Kiev police and protestors.

One should probably consider both sets of reports before one comes to a conclusion about how this whole thing started. After all, no one would argue that regime change was not an objective of the US well before the “Arab spring” kicked off.

I found some reports and linked to them below.

What I found even more persuasive were the comments of a particular Syrian rebel “the 47th” in a twitter exchange with the ex US ambassador to Syrian after he published an article in the New Yorker. It seems the US ambassador was busy promising aid to potential defectors against the regime if they took up arms.

Amb Ford
“We all learned from Iraq that regime change is not the way to bring about positive political change. In the case of civil war, there needs to be negotiation between the opposition and the government. The question is how you increase the likelihood that it will succeed. And ever since Secretary Clinton and Sergei Lavrov concluded the communiqué, in June, 2012, Administration policy has failed to create the conditions necessary to succeed.”

S. Rifai @THE_47th 5:02 AM - 19 Jun 2016
That’s not what u told us in meetings in Damascus Ambassador @fordrs58 …that’s not the message you conveyed

Ambassador Ford @fordrs58 you have had more freedom in Damascus in 2011 than most political opposition and throughout your meetings, the above message was different

You actually had the courage Ambassador @fordrs58 to sit with regime officials who seemed ready to defect and your message certainly wasn’t “negotiation”

Your meetings in Abu Remmaneh, Malki, and in known dissidents houses Mr. @fordrs58, remember those? remember the promises?

I can get more specific about these meetings Mr. @fordrs58, but it is not in your interest nor mine

These details are like farts in the wind Mr. Ambassador @fordrs58 - what counts is the “Assad must go” part that you and your president said repeatedly.

Does that change the way you look at the conflict?

Yes some do. In fact chlorine I think is difficult to do a biological test for in blood etc because it breaks down into sodium chloride and other chlorides. However they dont completely disappear and in a large scale attack there would be traces in soil samples etc. FWLIW, chlorine is not classified as a CW.

Generally I have found “cui bono” to be useful in assessing all sorts of situations. But really, I would wait and see what inspectors say. If the evidence disappears in sunlight one might wonder how the other cases were considered so definitive. Now let me ask you a counterfactual. If you were to get evidence that your government and media has been lying to you, how much would it take to get you to change your mind? And how would it affect your world view, if at all?

How would it affect yours, and what makes you so sure the syrian government is trustworthy when no other government is?

Im of mixed race. I have no problem thinking of the US or UK governments as hostile to my personal interests. Historically they always were.

The syrian government is not trustworthy. Which is why i consider their self-interest in determining their likely actions. In this case however the question is why is Jaish al Islam trustworthy, given they are the only source of the allegation that CWs were used? Why do you believe the unverified claims of a salafist terrorist group?

My politics are based in anti-imperialism, refugee rights, environmental activism and socialism, in roughly that order.

I believe that oppressed people have the right to pursue justice by any means necessary. But I also believe that imperial powers should keep their fucking noses out of other people’s business, particularly when their interference comes in the form of explosives.

If the Syrians themselves choose to overthrow Assad, more power to them. But that isn’t what’s happening here; the rebels are armed, funded and trained by outside forces, include plenty of foreign fighters and do not appear to have the support of most Syrians. As far as I can tell, they’re Contras.

External interference in civil conflict nearly always makes the situation massively worse. You need to leave people alone so that they can liberate themselves.

From what I’m seeing, most of the persecution of minorities appears to be coming from the rebel factions. ISIS and al-Qaeda are not noted for their tolerance of religious minorities. The Yazidis appear to be taking a particular battering.

Assad is a bastard, but he’s a secular bastard who is not known for the persecution of religious or ethnic minorities. Which is part of why things like this exist:

The Syrian conflict is absolutely saturated in propaganda from all factions. It’s almost impossible to be certain of anything from the outside.

The Syrians that I follow on Twitter are strongly opposed to the rebels (as are the folks I follow from other countries in the region), and you can find plenty of recent footage of Syrians condemning the rebels and demonstrating in defence of Assad. But you can also find plenty of media arguing the other side.

There’s a good debate here (a few weeks old, predating recent events) that presents arguments from both pro- and anti-intervention factions:

4 Likes

TLDW: Biden confirming that US-aligned foreign powers have been arming and funding extremist jihadis in Syria (and then claiming that the US stopped it, but I don’t find that particularly credible).

So, any numbers on how many civilians drumpf and the US air force killed this time?

1 Like

Sorry, that was a general observation, not just Syria. Other countries have more problems with Sunni and Shiite factions making life hard for the other one. I concede that may have not been a big factor in Syria.

I will try to find the time to delve into some of these first hand accounts.

This topic was automatically closed after 5 days. New replies are no longer allowed.