WATCH: Japanese people who live in Internet cafes because they can't afford apartments

It’s not that most people can’t afford rent, it’s that the upfront costs of renting an apartment can be pretty steep. Between first month’s rent, deposit and “key” money, a lot of places will set you back 6 months work of rent. Not to victim blame, but part of the issue is the inability of some to save money, and living at manga kissa only exacerbates that. In recent years, a number of municipalities have begun offering up low interest loans to get people into permanent housing.

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Its such a relief that someone else besides me can let the hype out of these “wow Japan” posts.

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This reminds me of Laney in William Gibson’s “All Tomorrow’s Parties”, when he’s living in a cardboard box in the Tokyo subway.

Doesn’t the inability of some people to save money stem from the fact that many workers don’t even earn enough money to be able to save? How is that their fault? In Australia, an unemployed person must burn through most of their their savings before they’re eligible for unemployment benefits. This almost guarantees that some people will never be able to save enough for a bond and first and last month’s rent.

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This outlook seems to subtly correlate money with ability. Most seem to assume that earning and accumulating money is going to automatically be a goal for the average person. I am not saying this is good or bad - but just that there seem to be many implicit assumptions tied up in this.

Yes, why would I assume that people would prefer to be able to save enough to get some residential security instead of couch surfing or sleeping in their car (if they can afford a car).

But does “prefer to be able” really make sense of how people work? Sure, it can be a preference or an ability, but I don’t think these concepts can be assumed as directly related.

One might have the ability to deal with money (Yea! Maths!), but prefer to pursue security through actual survivalism rather than hoarding magical paper.

1989 called: capitalism, for better or worse, won.

I think you’ll find that a lot of things that people say kind of assume that we live in a capitalist society based upon money, and I don’t think they should have to make that assumption explicit every time they speak.

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It doesn’t really matter. Money is a technology, and like any other tech, people cannot use it effectively if they take for granted what it is and how it works. Society is based upon people, and hiding behind our tech is merely a fiction which seems “convenient” and for only certain players, at that. Modern society is also largely based upon “computers” (whatever they are) - yet I don’t seem to get lots of emotional tirades in those posts asking me not to talk about how they work. Tools are tools. But when people tell me to shut up and use a tool without examining it - I call shenanigans.

And no, FWIW, even in 1989 there were quite a few non-capitalist cultures. I am not moving to 1989 and nobody is paying me to front for their disempowering memes. I think it’s outright creepy how people here encourage others to speak up about exploitive processes such as rape, fraud, and violence - yet something as fundamental as this gets tuned out and quite actively discouraged from discussion. It should hardly be controversial that things do not improve when how people think and talk about exploitation requires people to accept it as normal, rather than striving to educate and show healthier possibilities.

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Sure they can. People use all sorts of technology effectively even though they take it for granted and don’t ask how it works. And derailing a conversation about other things into your own personal crusades because they tangentially relate to that crusade isn’t that helpful, especially when you seque into that crusade by attacking the everyday assumptons of others instead of a engaging in a gentler and more approachable transition.

Well, for one thing you don’t seem to have an informed understanding of how money works (or how social services and the education system work). And if this were a thread about how money works, you wouldn’t be subject to these “emotional tirades.” Furthermore, nobody is telling you to shut up and use money without examining it: so far as I can tell, someone simply made the assumption that most people would like to be able to afford a fixed place to live, as opposed to living in an internet cafe. You chose to use this as an entry-point to your thoughts on the nature of money, which may be interesting but aren’t super relevant to this topic.

The main alternative to Western capitalism effectively fell in 1989.

Are you educating? Have you shown healthier possibilities? (Does a vague reference to “survivalism” actually mean anything?) Is money inherently exploitative?

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Uhuh. Meanwhile in the real world, where you and Glenn Beck don’t live…

And you tell me I am derailing? The problem, conversationally, is that whenever I make a passing remark in a topic, that people’s response to it grinds things to a halt. The very title of the topic sets things up with “because they can’t afford”, which outlines from the very start that the topic is about relationships between where people live, and their use of money. So, if I make a remark upon these things, how does this amount to a “personal crusade”? Since I have lived much of my life as a techno-nomad (although not in Japan), and with experience in squatting and rootless living, it seems natural enough that I’d have a perspective on this, and make a brief comment about it.

If I make some extended thesis about this, then I’ve derailed the topic. If I decline to, then I’ve talked out my ass for not addressing the questions. Is there some pressing reason why people could not just accept my initial dialog with Leah_Doner at face value and move on? If it were a topic about torture, and I made a remark that torture is unnecessary and a degrading affront to human dignity, would I expect condescending posts every time about how naive I must be in not knowing how much precedent there is for it? How dare I refute something that people actually do in the real world?

If pointing out that assumptions are precisely that - assumptions - constitutes an attack of all things, then you must assume that people have some extremely tender sensibilities! I consider attacks to be personal remarks…

Why does everyone insist on talking about “Japan” and the “Japanese people”? The division of the world into nation-states is a purely social construct.

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how is a social construct less real than any other sort of construct?

Maybe because your passing remarks aren’t that relevant or topical. Why aren’t they? See below.

If you’re pointing out assumptions that are implicit and universally understood, as though the other party was either unaware of them or should have accounted for them, then you are attacking them. You, who accuse others of emotional tirades, should understand this, especially as I haven’t seen many personal remarks directed towards you.

I think pretty much everyone understood that capitalistic assumptions underpin a thread—as well as the comments in it—which is explicitly about the working poor who can’t afford apartments. Failure to explicate these capitalist assumptions isn’t a failure in the commentary.

I believe he’s taking the piss.

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Why do you assume they do? It isn’t true that “everyone” insists upon it. A minority are quite capable of holding a country by force. In fact, that’s pretty much the definition. Making it appear to be some Universal Truth which people can’t even vote upon merely helps make it easier to put over on people.

One way is that social constructs tend to require people to subscribe to or believe in them. A more useful distinction is whether one is imprisoned within a system run by and for some people or parties one doesn’t even know - or if supposedly free people can implement their own systems without interference. After all, as good capitalists, people would want to see competition and see which of the many local systems had the most to offer. /s

I didn’t mean that kind of “passing”…

Anyway, I forked all of this to another topic, so as to not derail this one.

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Because both Japan and the Japanese people are real? Or at least that is what my eyes and ears tell me every day. You on the other hand are just bits to me, not even a social construct. Thats not intended to belittle you (if you really exist) but rather to point out the weapons grade absurdity of your statement.

One may find the joke’s context right here in this thread. Toward the end.

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