I admit it! It was bait.
I’m just trying to get someone anyone to argue back with me.
See, I added a wink. 
Oooh, that should say ‘anyone’. Don’t mean to imply I’m trying to draw @anon15383236 into a debate (although I am and think it would be awesome).
To be clear, I don’t entirely have a problem with fight sports existing. I think they provide little to human culture and they definitely need to be redesigned to better protect the fighters, something that only you out of all the pro-fight commenters seems to admit.
What I have a huge problem with is bad arguments for things and this thread is a roll-call of bad, incoherent or ignorance-based arguments. When presented with these and asked to just accept them I tend to get a bit mean and aggressive.
I agree that the arguments need to be more well formed and based on empathy. For sure.
I disagree that they (fight-sports) add little to human culture. See Bruce Lee. See any Martial Art that has transitioned into the new age of MMA. More has been learned about the chess match that is a fight in the last 20 years than the previous 10,000.
There is a serious depth to the culture, the complexity, the in your face difficulty of creating ad-hoc strategies whilst you are in danger of being hurt. The training camps, the geniuses who game plan for every eventuality. The insights into functional fitness and flexibility of both body and mind.
It’s not ballet. Yet.
Boxing, and quite possibly several other sports certainly seem to be associated with serious long term health consequences. The most horrific of these are the long term brain injuries, to my mind anyway. Even the deaths per year numbers we’ve been talking about seem far less important to me.
Everyone dies, there are options as to the manner and the timing, but not the outcome. However not everyone ends up with severely limited mental capacity as a result of an activity they are financially compensated for. Seems perfectly reasonable to ban at least the commerce related to such activities.
Base jumping, mountain biking, hell anything that might be fun or constitute a ‘sport’ have some inherent risks, but so does driving to the place where you go mountain biking, showering, working, climbing the stairs etc.
Boxing has that, plus a very serious long term risk of disability and protracted suffering. I seriously doubt that many young enough to start into the combat sports can understand that risk. Removing the financial incentive seems a perfectly reasonable bit of social engineering towards that end. Depending on your feeling about the role of the state in regulating public behavior banning the activity outright might well be reasonable.
See Bruce Lee. See any Martial Art
Did you really think I wouldn’t notice you changing the subject? On that subject I’d be inclined to agree but primarily because people who train in martial arts are taught that the skills they learn are for self-defence, not inflicting injury on an adversary. I think that, for the most part, fighters in things like boxing or MMA also have an appreciation of the concept that you keep it in the ring, but the problem is that MMA speaks to a huge audience who aren’t fighters but aim to have the kind of physique and tough attitude with which MMA fighters behave. It’s these dickheads who punch people IRL in bars or on the street while drunk, on meth or having a tinydick roid rage.
It’s also worth pointing out that (though I suspect you already know this) professional fighters don’t always keep it in the ring:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/445751/White-Felice-Herrig-not-kicked-off-TUF-20-on-first-day-but/
the in your face difficulty of creating ad-hoc strategies whilst you are in danger of being hurt.
This is one aspect of fight sports that I find particularly distasteful. It’s not just the danger of being hurt it’s the actual being hurt that changes things. The psychological impact of ‘losing ground’ exists in every sport, but only in fight sports is the impact a literal handicap after every successful punch. A fighter benefits by hurting their opponent. Any sport in which this dynamic not only exists but is actively exploited, I cannot get behind.
Go right ahead. Is someone stopping you?
It’s not an issue.
That’s not a reason. It’s merely an unsupported claim. Actual reasons, plz.
Whaa?
Concerning the self-defence aspect, that does exist and is important. But I think the vitality of martial arts, in fact the ‘art’ in martial arts, is developed solely when the fighters are trying to hurt one another. This is how you develop efficacy. Which may then feed back into defence.
Ignoring the importance of discovery, the feed back loop of actually checking which techniques were effective is how martial arts became so stagnant. Check out some of the ‘Old Venerated Martial Art’ Vs MMA fights on youtube. They are as disturbing as they are illuminating.
Couldn’t agree more about the raving roid-headed rascals. Please forgive the terrible alliteration.
Edit to add:
And that is, of course, your choice. I don’t think you are making the point that you would deny others their choice (to fight or watch fights). Are you?
The gladiatorial games were quite literally MMA for profit and survival, rather than some idealized ritual. Sure there’s some evidence they were often fixed the way sports are today, but I don’t really think the MMA phenomenon has completely changed our understanding of human vs human combat.
That they have added to our culture isn’t something I can argue against; however negative activities, and human suffering in general add a great deal to the culture. Who hasn’t been inspired by stories that come out of people enduring famine, abuse, addiction or mental illness? Much of human culture is born out of suffering and hardship, but that doesn’t really mean we should try to encourage more of it does it?
I must politely disagree with those points completely.
Then I will start by contradicting myself.
They are a burden on society.
But they are a burden we must bear.
If we are to allow any sports or pastimes which may result in society having to care for injured people then why discriminate?
I would also add, I think there should be further investment by the companies who promote the sports, probably by way of contributions to the athletic commissions responsible for licensing fighters. This should be allotted for post-career medical insurance.
As I understand it, this is in the pipeline. The abandonment of the fighters by the promoters, the companies and the commissions, however, is an issue of personal, moral responsibility (and as such is ancillary to my argument, I just want to put that out there, (I’m not a monster)); it shouldn’t be left entirely to the fighters to pay for medical bills after they are no longer earning money from the industry.
Again, however, the modernised and responsible companies do pay for all medical bills of active fighters, whilst still on the roster.
I believe you are about to cross-pollinate the conception of intentional harm and moral culpability and you have made me think about this but I also expect to be surprised and learn something so, please, let’s continue.
Whaa?
I draw a distinction between martial arts which have long and interesting histories and professional fighting sports with mainstream televised audiences. They’re not the same thing.
Check out some of the ‘Old Venerated Martial Art’ Vs MMA fights on youtube.
Pass, though I know what you’re talking about. I don’t personally see this as very surprising since it’s how most things work. Usually the best solutions come from combining the best aspects of various disparate disciplines.
If we are to allow any sports or pastimes which may result in society having to care for injured people then why discriminate?
Is it not sensible to discriminate based on relative danger? Base jumping from buildings is (pretty rightfully IMO) illegal for a reason.
Really? I’d like to read about that… should I start with wikipedia?
Well, I’m probably a buddhist, so I would make the argument that all of human culture is borne of suffering so…
I made the point earlier about some fighters being blacklisted for continuing to try to hurt their opponent outside of the agreed to terms.
That’s where the unwelcome violence comes in and I condemn it strongly; because I believe that the agreed to violence can lead to beauty, compassion for your fellow fighter and an uplift of human achievement found only at the top of the mountain. If we respect each others wishes.
Really? Why?
I can see the argument for one of the most effective, least brutally violent martial arts (designed by a woman by the way): Wing Chung. It’s beautiful to watch and the forms can be practised without an opponent, or with an opponent without hitting them, kinda like capoeira. Of course, it can be applied to actual fighting too.
The ‘base’ one can develop from forms like Wing Chung, Judo or (especially) Wrestling are the absolute core of effective martial arts.
As I’m sure you are also aware, people continually wheel out examples of more professionals getting concussion from heading a soccer ball than fighting blah blah blah. Those arguments are facile and worn out. However true they might be.
I believe this, at its core, to be about personal freedom.
I would compare base jumping to unregulated fighting. And do kinda agree.
Audience and impact on the minds (or lack of) of the audience - normalisation of violence. You are not characteristic of the average boxing/MMA fan. The average boxing/MMA fans are not smart people. Sadly I have to live in a world where these people also exist and sometimes their mindless love of violence spills over to affect others.
I’ve personally IRL watched judo, greco-roman wrestling and sumo. With the exception of sumo, none of them involved an audience who were drinking (and people in Japan get drunk with civility and without becoming aggressive), and certainly none of them were being televised to bars full of drunk/drinking people. This is the obvious distinction between mainstream fighting sports and martial arts in my opinion: the impact of the sports outside of the participants.
As I’m sure you are also aware, people continually wheel out examples of more professionals getting concussion from heading a soccer ball than fighting blah blah blah.
They (like most on your side in this thread, other than you) wheel out examples that are presented without evidence. In cases where evidence is presented it’s usually a purely numerical ‘proof’ that looks at overall numbers of concussions, as opposed to the ratio of concussions:participants which is the only way to assess the dangers of anything. I’d love to see some actual data that supports these claims. I’ve been hoping someone might have even one example to show me that supports this claim.
The Japanese are one of, if not the most educated and appreciative audiences of violence in the world. See ‘Pride FC’. Holy crap, they allowed head stomps to a grounded opponent.
Concerning the stats on concussions etc.
Man, I debated this in high school and did all that research then (I’d initially chosen to debate that boxing should be banned but changed my mind after having done a lot of that research).
However, it wasn’t the numbers or quality of concussions or other injuries that eventually swayed me. Ultimately it was the aspect of personal freedom that made me change my mind.
This is the only thing that will convince me, and a large number of people similar to me.
The personal freedom argument cannot be the only basis of argument for the continuation of something because everyone has a point at which they agree a person’s freedoms shouldn’t impact others, and that point is different for everyone.
I personally believe that the influence on non-participants of boxing/MMA is sufficiently negative that it’s something to be ridiculed and mocked, but I am happy to set that aside if I’m presented with salient, evidence-based arguments as to the relative safety of boxing/MMA compared to other sports. Short of such evidence all we’re left with is a subjective argument based on a person’s opinion of how free freedom should be.
And yeah… Pride makes UFC fighters look like little children slapping each other and has been around for much longer. I am equally as disgusted by it, but less opposed to it as the Japanese have somehow figured out how to be watch and support it without getting the meat-headed ‘do u even lift bro’ juice pigs. If the impact of a sport was only on the participants I would entirely endorse people bashing each other as much as they want. I just feel that the negative impact of boxing and MMA on non-participants can never be adequately addressed in Western cultures.
This is an interesting point but I think it indicates something in the culture, rather than the sport.
My experience of MMA fans is almost opposite to yours. All of the participants and fans I’ve ever met have been humble, respectful and otherwise educated.
I see the fights breaking out in the crowds, though, and I put it down to the incredible explosion of MMA recently. They’ve hoovered in so many American Football and soccer fans to their ranks that there is still an ongoing adjustment period, through which we must endure.
However, I have noticed the audiences becoming more educated and appreciative, on the whole. People don’t just bay for blood any more.
More and more they appreciate the subtle moments, like when someone sets up a guard pass (manipulating a grounded opponent, so you can pin down their torso with your hips), the audible appreciation when someone executes a daring take-down, or when Rhonda Rousey throws her opponent into a blizzard of limbs and comes out with an arm bar.
Sure, they still delight in the violence, and maybe something needs to be done about the alcohol content of these events in the meantime. It is changing. Albeit, slowly, and with the impetus and weight of a culture that promotes and clings to the bullying, cheating and faking of soccer, or the armoured assault of American Football.
The appreciation of wicked violence runs deep and I think modern combat sports, especially, centrally, MMA is changing this with the spirit of Bushido.
Overly broad on my part of course. I’m not suggesting that all sports are fixed all the time, or even most of the time. I was thinking of things like professional wrestling, the Olympic ice skating scandal, the fixing of the world series back in the day, point shaving in college basketball, the way NBA officiating works so that what’s a foul for one player isn’t a foul for another. College football polls making sure that certain teams are destined to be pitted against each other in the championship game. Various promoters (Don King) setting up boxing matches so that only certain fighters had any opportunity to fight for the championship. I didn’t intend to allege that all, or even most sports were rigged.
Existence is suffering, yet it is everything. -Someone smarter than me, sometime in the past.
Well said.
Oh, no. I mean; where to start reading about the ancient, gladatorial fixin’.
There’s an article I read, or a documentary I saw… I will look in my bookmarks when I get home and if I can find the link get it in here before this thread gets locked. It was related to the relatively recently uncovered tunnels that led into the arena from the gladiator training facility which was unearthed and the subject of some articles and/or documentaries in the not too distant past. (I’m old, but not that old, post 2000,)
No, but I didn’t say that there’s anything wrong with pot, so we’re even!
Seriously tho, I was responding to Mark Frauenfelder’s original post, which at the very least implied that Something Ought To Be Done.
