Why old people complain about millenials

Yeah, but it was still officially detente during much of that time, at least during the Nixon administration. We carved out normalized relations with China, for example, and started and closed SALT I. At least until the early 70s, I think most Americans were focused domestically given the 70s oil shocks, and stagflation. Don’t forget all the various revelations happening at this time–Watergate was not the only reason Americans were becoming distrustful of the government–COINTELPRO was a big part of it too, and the weathermen were on the lose, lets’ not forget leaving Vietnam and the revelations of the CIA funding numerous cultural organizations as part of the cold war strategy.

To be honest don’t think that the Angolan civil war or the 6 day War had the same apocalyptic tones that the arms build up of the 50s and 80s carried with them–no matter how hot, I doubt anyone who is not a Christian fundamentalist thinks that the Israelis taking Jerusalem meant doom for us all, no matter where you stand on the occupation. Plus, don’t forget, Carter brokered a peace in the late 70s with Israel and Egypt, which is still holding today.

My point is not necessarily that there was not any tensions, but that the tensions were more submerged, in part due to domestic issues. We had more open relations with the Soviets during that time than we did in the 50s and 80s.

I think I agree with this to an extent. I’d say I have more in common with my parents, culturally speaking, then they had in common with their parents–but I think you are making the mistake of assuming all boomers were leftists/anti-war/pro-hedonism. Remember the modern new right got it’s start from a fair number of young people, too, who shared your cultural upbringing and came out politically aware in a different way. The modern libertarian movement starts in the 60s as much as SDS and the new left. There is, I think, still a fair amount of mythologizing of the 60s generation going on.

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“Mythologizing”? Oh, you must’ve still been a wicked gleam in your daddy’s eye, or you’d know better than that. I make no mistakes about which was what. It didn’t matter that not all were absorbed with that newer culture, because you couldn’t really escape it if you wanted to. There really was no middle ground to be had. It was simply that divisive. And everyone was affected in some way. If you were not part of a minority group, you were likely either a sympathizer or a part of the opposition to those groups.

And, you try to lump it all into a description that doesn’t fit very well. We were not all ‘leftists’. We were often called that by others. We were not all ‘anti-war’. A whole lot of young men in that generation got drafted, or had to run. We were not all ‘pro-hedonism’, either. We were more pro-experimentation, and on all kinds of levels, in lots of directions. That was the objection - the business of departing from what was known, and what made you fit in with everyone else. Your description of that period reads very much like it came out of a textbook, rather than having lived it as a part of your life, as people who were there did. Nobody gave a crap about SALT. Jimmy Carter didn’t even come along until 1977 - by which time the Boomers were already grown, and rock and roll had all but died. You’re talking world affairs, I’m talking about personal experiences. I mentioned the tech advancements earlier - but I meant that in the sense that an individual experiences and uses it. Not in a loose way, at all.

Probably, the greatest influence was not the political events of the time, but the music. Because, no matter what one’s opinion on any one thing? The music was everywhere - and it usually conveyed messages of change or protest. That was not contained at Woodstock, or in the Haight. It wasn’t a psychedelic poster you saw - it was in your face. The most basic message was always the same - Hey. look at this. Now, think for yourself. And that was the complete antithesis of all the Depression Babies had known and believed. Even the most moderate of that older generation were scared of it. COINTELPRO was probably much more central, because it actively targeted people domestically. Consider that during that same period, Richard Nixon spent 8 years as VP, and then Prez for nearly 4 more. HUAC was not punished - it was massively rewarded, and by majority vote! Repeatedly!

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First, of course I sound like a textbook, not a participant… I wasn’t alive them and I am an historian, one who focuses on the Cold War and popular culture… :wink:

Second, I hope you’re not taking any of this personally, because although I do have some criticism of the era, I have no interest in diminishing personal experiences, because that’s not my goal. My goal IS to better understand that era, writ large. I do think that getting at the reality of the era, not just the myth actually does matter. While that can include the many positive personal experiences many young people of that time had, assuming that EVERYONE had that experience or were as transformed by those experiences is just missing the forest for the trees. The people who got the most self-fulfillment out of the time were generally speaking the middle class white kids who were in open revolt against culture norms and who still benefited from the power structure of the time, which privileged middle class whites, especially men, over everyone else. The experiences of African Americans, women, and working class Americans were often pretty different and it seems unfair to me to not acknowledge that reality. While for middle class Americans there were new opportunities especially in the realm of cultural and sexual expression, this was also the origins of deindustrialization and white flight, which decimated American cities and exacerbated racial tensions into the 70s/80s and eventually gave us the modern neo-liberal economy. Whether by design or accident, the think for your self mood of the 60s gave way to a particular form of libertarianism that ignored social structures as unimportant.

And I do think the era is quite actively and very mythologized, but then to be fair so is nearly every era. I’m sure us Gen-xers have our own mythologized versions of growing up in the 70s and 80s, and you can see that in many of the retrospectives of the punk scenes during that time. Our personal experiences vary, of course, and though punk is now highlighted as being a major influence in the era, in fact, it was generally seen as a negative sub-culture, or at the very least, something to be mocked… it’s only been in the past decade or so that punk has been given any sort of cultural attention…

Don’t get me wrong here—I agree that you’re talking about personal experience, and I’m talking about structure, but social structures and institutions give shape to our personal experiences, no?

I also think you are ignored the very real strain of radicalism of the 30s and 40s that was not non-existent at all, but much of that was wiped out by the new social contract in the post war period, which promised mass prosperity for some level of conformity–But civil rights did much to disrupt that notion, pretty early on, and that tradition was carried on by the New Left, for a little while at least. Once vietnam no longer became an issue, the whole thing sort of fragmented into the various rights movement…

Again, don’t feel like I am trying to ignore or gloss over yours and other experiences, it is part and parcel of what makes the era important, but I still think untangling those personal experiences and trying to fit them within some sort of non-mythologized understanding of the time period, that looks at it warts and all, matters.

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Oh, no. Not taking it personally. Hope you are not, either. My focus is American History in general, and presently, Old West history.

I do actually agree that it was not the same experience for all. The ‘myth’ would be the stereotypes, though. Not everyone was a stoner war protester or an extreme right-wing hawk. It all existed on a continuum, just like most human experience.

But see, that’s where I think you may be missing a beat. You say middle-class white kids benefitted most…but how do compare a certain adolescent experience to, say, Black Americans hitting the streets en masse for the first time, and talking about pride? Did that kid in the 'burbs gain more than that kid who suddenly reached for some personal and ethnic pride that might not have been available before - even just as a conscious thought? Did that white male gain more? Or was it women who toughened up and overcame obstacles in the workplace? Because (personal experience), I could not even admit I knew how to type, unless I wanted to be consigned to a secretarial pool or data processing job. It was all still very, very ‘Mad Men’, and that didn’t stop for a long, long time.

To say that social structure was ignored entirely is really wholesaling it. Instead, the thing was to re-think and re-consider social structures - not to ignore them. You gave that away when you described that generation as hedonists. Yes, the goal was to feel better and be generally happier - but social structure was at the very forefront of everything! To alter the position of previously discriminated social and ethnic groups, you had to alter structures in some way. To reconsider things like communal living, you didn’t ignore structure at all - you considered a different structure. There wasn’t just ‘white flight’, although that was a thing - there was a distinct exodus of Black Americans from the inner cities, too. They basically re-segregated themselves all over again, but away from the confines of those urban areas.

Actually, I do agree about how the 30’s and 40’s held an enormous influence on the later period. But, thing is, you talk about ‘white flight’ as if that was the be-all and end-all of how people changed their living situations, when in truth, the post-war housing boom had a far greater effect. Suddenly, not only a baby boom, but a need for much more housing, and a population of veterans who could not only buy, but finance that housing. Do developers build on the most valuable land? No - they go for the cheaper deal. So, 'burbs are born. Smaller lots, cheaper construction, and bigger profits. And that did create a major shift that still worked with industrialization. The so-called ‘white flight’ was actually a situation where a single black family bought into a previously all-white neighborhood, and the whites then sold out and left, in fear that property values would decline. The rest of it? Not racially-motivated at all, really. As families grew larger and income increased, those who had bought the smaller, cheaper homes could and did go for something better. And those just starting out or of lesser income spilled into the areas the older families sold out of.

So, when we talk of ‘mythologizing’, we do need to take into account that this was a great period of trying to assess and inventory everything that was wrong with the status quo. And in those efforts, it was very easy to hang names on phenomena in order to push a social agenda that really were either minor or really had very little to do with the phenomenon, itself. And ‘white flight’ actually makes a really good example of that. It did mean one thing, but was taken up as a kind of rallying cry, and now, you are thinking it meant something it actually didn’t - just as many other people have done. The truth is, there’s actually real estate law that was passed because, especially in CA, real estate agents would lie to people and tell them a black family had bought in their neighborhood in order to get them to list their properties and/or sell them cheaper. It was a very, very specific thing - often based on lies, not realities at all. The fact that it ever, ever worked? Now that was certainly remarkable, and a testament to the ‘establishment’ attitudes of the day.

Today we have internet memes. Then, it was those catchy descriptions. One person might write about it, and before you knew it, talk show hosts who wanted to appear cool and ‘with it’ were telling your mother what it meant…not! Because, talk show hosts, corporate medea - not exactly counter-culture stuff. I actually saw a millennial try to claim that bra-burnings never actually happened. Why? Because he couldn’t find a report of it in the Wayback machine, apparently, and so decided it was myth. But it did happen. (Was there for some.)

So, you can only gather just so much from remaining written materials. Frankly (and no offence intended), I would be a whole lot slower to believe things, simply because someone wrote them down. Because, writers have to earn… They may be trying to sell an idea along with their writing, r to get famous, or just to make more money - but there is a motivation there that doesn’t always speak to the experience of others much at all, and the truth only sometimes. Instead, with this particular subject, you might actually do better to just ask around, and see what various people tell you about their own experiences. After all, most of us survived the experience…

I don’t see that certain nostalgia each generation has as ‘mythologizing’, per se. There were positive and negative experiences with each, and of course you miss the positive experiences. (I think the key to knowing which is which is whether you are hearing both positives and negatives at all. )

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When you say “not all of Gen X sees things the same” what are you referring to? You seem to say just before that that our experience in the early 90s as young adults was rather similar, at least in terms of the anecdote I related, as well as our rather grim sense of future prospects.

First off, I think you replied to the wrong person! :wink: And good, I’m glad both of us aren’t taking anything personally…

This is just historically inaccurate, I’m afraid. There was a much longer history of activism and the classical civil rights was not the first time they were out of the street… protest against segregation was ongoing from the end of reconstruction on. Go check out Tera Hunter’s To 'Joy My Freedom, about the Washerwoman’s strike in Atlanta in the 1880s. Likewise, there was a rather high level of racial consciousness–look at the works of DuBois or Marcus Garvey, who directly influenced the Nation of Islam. I think if there was a difference, it was in the role that media played in the postwar period. The original “march on washington” was planned by labor organizer A. Phillip Randolph in the early days of the war to protest blacks being marginalized in the defense industry at that time. It worked–FDR signed an executive order to intergrate defense industries and they did not have to have the march. So yes, I do think that well into the 60s and 70s, despite the passing of important legislation and gains made in civil rights, white still disproportionately benefited from our social structures…

But that’s 'my point–these structures were not necessarily beneifting you and you had to work to overcome them, and sadly, despite all the work you did, we’re still dealing with these structures, albeit in unofficial ways… I’d argue that by focusing on the rights of specific groups, we missed the forest for the trees, and glossed over the structures that created inequality in the first place. Sure, women and African-Americans can now rise to the top of the corporate structure or become president, but we are still dealing with deep structural inequalities that stil benefit white men over the rest of us.

I won’t deny that people were focused on social structures, but the consumer system turned that into libertarian individualism that ignored the structures entirely.

Thomas Sugrue dealt with this issue in his study on Detroit, and he argues that everyone who could leave detroit did, and that had a strong class dimension to it. In other words, working class blacks were left holding the bag there as whites and middle class blacks left in droves and resources were re-directed to the city suburbs.

I don’t think it’s either/or. Whites had access to this stuff post war and blacks did not, at least until the 60s and by then, these programs were drying up. Postwar policy was deeply racial, I think we can agree on that right?

Not everyone agreed that the status quo was bad and worked to preserve it–not just racists and segregationists, either. [quote=“AliceWeir, post:105, topic:21366”]
there’s actually real estate law that was passed because, especially in CA, real estate agents would lie to people and tell them a black family had bought in their neighborhood in order to get them to list their properties and/or sell them cheaper.
[/quote]

Redlining correct? It was indeed in the 60s when redlining was legislated out of existence–but I think it probably died a slow and painful death.

I agree that history writing via textual sources is imperfect, but until we get a time machine, we can’t recreate the past, we can only make arguments based on the sources we have–one of those being oral histories. No, I don’t believe stuff because people “wrote them down”, but you also need to factor in the highly subjective nature of personal experiences, too, and when thinking historically, take those with a grain a salt, too. But there is popular history and there is academic history, and while they often meet and mingle, they really are beasts of a different color.

Oh, trust me… most historians aren’t making money off writing history books. They just aren’t. That’s why most of us work in academia, not as writers.

I’m happy to consider oral histories as important, but I see it as much more working with other sources. We all tend to see our pasts in subjective ways. But to be fair, the nature of sources are highly subjective too.

I see mythologizing not as making up lies about the past, but about that weird combination of fact and subjectivitiy that we all bring to our experiences, especially when we reflect on them later. What’s that Kurosawa film that tells a single story from multiple points of view? Is it Rashomon? Honestly, that is the only way we can do history–bringing these different, contradictory points of view togehter to try to carve out some sort of coherent narrative…

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The Community Reinvestment Act was passed in 1977 to deal with redlining.

Redlining really took off after the end of WWII, when the GI Bill guaranteed white vets an affordable home in all-white suburbs and forced black vets to congregate together in devalued communities – devalued because they were black, of course – and it took the CRA to force banks to stop this open discrimination. That’s three decades, the effects of which can still be seen in metropolitan areas around the country.

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Yes - although redlining certainly wasn’t limited to Black American communities, and wasn’t always distinctly ethnic in its biases, even though that is the best-known example. It could directing at communities though to contain too many immigrants, have too high a crime rate, or be geographically undesirable for other reasons. Ending the redlining certainly didn’t stop everything of that nature - all it really did, was force the banks to stop using a map, and forced them to explain themselves, property by property - which they still do. (I think we can probably agree that no existing legislative moves have rendered the banks honest and ethical in their mortgage business investments?)

And on the other side of that coin, the VA has specific requirements and standards for the homes it finances (which can at times be more stringent than either local building codes or FHA would demand.) And that, alone, could kill a housing sale as fast as anything else, because there was no provision for buying any kind of ‘fixer-upper’. That, too played a part in keeping some buyers out of better areas, where they may have been able to afford a lesser property in that area.

I am now and have always been firmly against any and all formal Arab occupation of the land of Israel. I suspect however that is not what you meant there…

Simply that while we seem to have had superficially similar background experiences, our responses to that article seem to have been quite different. I don’t see things as grim at all. When I say “its up to me to hustle” I mean that Im the one responsible for making my way no matter how it compares to my parents income, standard of living or what have you. I’m not unhappy about it at all

When boomers came up you could almost work a summer job and pay for that year’s college costs. Even compared to gen x’ers the costs are outrageous for millenials. Millenials’ parents are also putting less toward their children’s college costs to add insult to injury. I’m a gen x’er, and I totally think millenials have gotten scewed, just as we did (to a lesser degree) by those awful boomers.

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The internet hasn’t really changed the fact that the generations following the boomers have seen a steady decline in prosperity and that boomers have much to answer for in that department.

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We had an 8-bit (an Amstrad CPC, quite like the C64) when I was wee, but the 16-bit Commodore Amiga was what I got at 10 years old or so. This maybe feeds into that “between generations” idea for people born around 1980–not solidly either, but very much aware of what both were supposedly about.

An interesting thing with that, very “Gen sensitive”, would be that when I had the Amstrad, I was super into the idea of programming. All those Gen X computers booted right into a hot damn basic interpreter when you turned them on. Baked right into the chip. It was what the machine expected of you.

The Amiga, though, you just played games. Creativity would be app-based, like Delux Paint. Getting into coding was just not part of the deal unless you really had the nerdliness to go and demand it. Piracy was rampant, too.

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We can, however, all agree young people are awful, and they have stupid hair, yes?

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Heck no, they’ve got great hair!

Which is why we hate them so much.

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Yes, I’m in Gen X and there was a fair amount of wealth, even after the stock market crashed. Seemed like there was a lot of status in sending your kid to a status school. But now most of the financial gurus say that you don’t owe your kids a college education and should focus on your own retirement ahead of your children’s school. My own parents were really broke, so I had an amazing scholarship and a few very low interest loans - best thing I ever did was walk out of college with only about $5000 in debt to repay. Even with my college degree I still worked crap jobs, temp jobs and admin assistant jobs, for two or three years before settling into my career, but then the dot com boom came along and all ships rose with the tide, especially those in the tech ship.

Most of the kids I know in college are doing the start at community college then transfer thing. The whole idea of going off to college for some kind of growth experience has evaporated.

What’s weird to me is that parents seem willing to put kids up in their homes forever but not help them to get a degree and get out for good - seems like money will be spent either way.

A lot of money is about control; my parents used to do it to me a lot, “We don;t have the money,” but really it was that they did have money but choose to spend it on other things - some were good choices, some ways to supposedly protect me. I think that is what is happening in a lot of cases, a choice to keep kids around the house so they do not experience sex, drugs, and rock n’ roll.

ha ha.

I always assumed that was a demographic thing. Us Gen Xers are a small generation, the Boomers and Millenials much larger.

Maybe… I don’t know. I’ll have to see if there are any books on this topic, cause I think it’s rather curious.