exactly right.
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I do believe even in what you call orthodox circles, there is a variety of beliefs on what women should wear in their call to “dress modestly.” Not all conservative Muslims believe women should wear a burka. That’s a rather specific cultural group, which includes some conservative Muslims.
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Rob brought up the burka specifically. I brought up the related standard that requires a close male relative escort if they leave the house that is associated with that level of orthodoxy.
Most of the sumptuary laws in Islamic countries are based on tribal practices believed to pre-date Islam itself. They are wrapped in religious justifications at times, but mostly based on the Prophet’s injunction for both men and women to dress modestly.
Here’s an interesting site that deals with the subject.
But as for compelling anyone to wear any specific dress, that’s very tough to justify by scripture.
The Koran, chapter 2 (the Cow) verse 256: There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in God has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. God is Hearer, Omniscient.
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In that case, you’re both off the mark, with regards to what’s happening in Iran. It tends to be Sunni conservatives who tend towards the more extreme forms of covering, especially when in relation to the state.
But fair enough.
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My wife moved back to Iran for several years. She’s also come back to UK and US.
I know dozens of Iranians like this. Many move from years in LA or London or Hamburg. They aren’t idiots.
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I find the theology interesting, but since religion is what it’s adherents say it is, not what you or I say it should be based on our interpretation of their scripture, the state-enforced “modesty” laws are for all practical purposes Islamic.
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“The orthodox version of Islam”
There is such a wealth of misinformation and plain ignorance in this phrase. It’s hard to begin a critique.
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I didn’t say they were, of course (but I think you know that). The reasons people come and go from a country are multifaceted, for sure. Some don’t leave because they can’t and some stay because they do love their country, even if they aren’t happy with something coming from the government.
I’m all about actually listening to the women of Iran, as opposed to just assuming how they feel about their situation in their own country, which an awful lot of people seem to be doing in this thread.
Some of the tensions in Iran have been nicely explored in their films, too. Like have you seen the Separation?
It’s an excellent film that deals with class, religion, and gender, without making anyone into people without agency. I think it gets at a good deal of some of these issues and how they unfold in Iran itself…
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Again, I was quoting someone else. I’m well aware that no such thing actually exists. I’m advocating for understanding Islam as something other than an “other” monolith and for actually listening to women in this situation.
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Indeed, I am aware that terms we use for religion, such as “fundamentalist” don’t translate well literally to Islam. If you wish to give your preferred, Islamically correct designation to characterize Islam on its sliding scale of mysogyny, from “none” to “Taliban”, please do so.
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Hmmm… not going to touch that. The theological issues and their relationship with Persian and Arab cultural mores and modes of dress are far too complex for me to discuss intelligently in this forum. I just don’t have enough knowledge.
Iran’s got the second or third largest population of Jews in the Middle East, and probably the largest population of Zoroastrians, but they are mostly Ja’fari Twelvers. Their laws reflect this, so that is where I will put them on your sliding scale.
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I think you posted that a while ago and it’s still awesome!
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What would you call that, though? In the US we call really strict Christians “fundamentalist” (even though that term used to have a more specific meaning) and really not strict Christians “liberal”. What would you call the sliding scale in Islam?
Also, while Iran may have the most Jews in the Middle East, we are talking about under 9,000 people. And while they have a lot of freedom compared to what I would have thought, they are still 2nd class citizens and cannot hold high office or be judges.
Dunno, can you actually refute what LDoBe wrote?
One thing that I miss from Google-Reader’s demise… Many of my old Google-reader share-“bros”* were young Iranian folks for whom the site was an important source of communication and information.
Google Reader’s demise is awful for Iranians, who use it to avoid censorship — Quartz
*most were actually women
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Geez, that must have been yesterday… Darn brain cells aren’t cooperating like they should.
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No, it was posted a while ago… I’m not complaining at all, as I love that story.
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