- Is it a roof?
- Is it on fire?
- WE DON’T CARE LET THE M**********R BURN!
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I pointed out the scale of the issues in a worldwide problem for context. It’s your election, but don’t expect the rest of the world to be terribly enthusiastic when y’all put yet another waste of space with a platform undermined by debts to lobbyists into White House.
My point, which is being avoided, is that a large crowd assembled to hear Bernie Sanders talk about economic inequality. Some very bad mannered people derailed that meeting to try and make it only about racism. If discussions about race start attracting points about inequality there is much piling on and accusations of derailing. Here there was a discussion about inequality that was derailed by race.
Either derailing an already existing discussion (online or in real life) in that way is fair game or it’s not. If derailing is only bad when “They” do it, that’s really rather hypocritical, is it not?
Lets not forget the responsibility to protest injustice. In this scenario, it is vital that they be rude, to a degree.
If such an important conversation is not being had, how can you push the agenda? Well, like this. Like it or not, this is democracy in action and how the whole thing is supposed to work.
Maybe they need to be more open to dialogue then and there and maybe they aren’t the best tempered individuals but the interjection is needed to introduce change.
And things are changing. I really want to see how this plays out because I think the result that is eventually worked toward will say an awful lot about the health of the liberal project.
Responsibility to protest injustice? Absolutely. But more like Marie Anne O’Reilly who crashed a self congratulatory group of arms dealers to point out what they really do to make their money:
…and not by picking on an easy target who is already on your side. The former is a genuine protest. The latter not so much.
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The rest of the world shouldn’t be enthusiastic and you should be pissed at us for numreous things. However, you can’t lay that down at the feel of BLM or civil rights activists more generally.
It’s not derailing, it’s democracy.
I really don’t think that’s fair that you get to pick and choose which battles this particular group gets to fight and how. Given that white liberals have a long history of saying “just wait” to black activists, I don’t begrudge them their tactics.
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No, with the possible exception of Nader if he was still running. Not perfect, but I might prefer him. Not sure what his politics are these days, though.
I will say I think their rhetoric is weird to a degree but only because I haven’t seen similar action for Hilary or GOP peeps. There’s obviously a lot of nuance to the situation but talking out the nature of it like this defines an envelope of dialogue that’s interesting to consider as further developments arise.
I’m always trying to see things from the memetic level in cultural exchanges like this so probably my views aren’t too relevant but it looks like the merging of two meme-plexes… It’s almost a compliment in those terms. Even though specific actions of individuals involved in the ideological interaction may be rude to one another or whatever.
I never said nor implied that. You should go back and read my post. Please stop with the straw man arguments and hyperbole.
What I clearly said was that education and jobs are related to black youth being exposed to police brutality. I also went on to say a lot more about how Sanders and grassroots groups will symbiotically work together to fight institutionalized racism very directly.
Now you’re just barking out parroted BLM talking points at me instead of listening to what I’m saying. And, trust me, this kind of shit is hurting our BLM movement, not helping. POC are getting tired of people within the BLM movement that are shouting down others with parroted talking points instead of engaging in dialog.
Speaking of which, please go back and read the rest of my post that talks about attacking racism head-on and please read the link at the bottom of my post to Sanders’ platform on racism and police brutality.
[quote=“Mindysan33, post:56, topic:63379”]
Class and race are not the same thing, they just aren’t.
[/quote]I literally said that within my post you’re now replying to.
As I’ve already said, the people I work with that support Sanders don’t think they are the same, exact thing. We just happen to realize that they are often symbiotic. In other words, they are related to one another in various, critical ways. To ignore that is very shortsighted and to change this nation for the better, we’re going to need both short term and long term strategies or we’ll continue to spin our wheels overall.
[quote=“Mindysan33, post:56, topic:63379”]
BLM, or any other group has no obligation to support Sanders or any other candidate. Each candidate has an obligation to earn the support of various groups.
[/quote]Sigh… again with the hackneyed talking points…
Where have I said that the BLM (which I’m a part of) has any obligation to support Sanders? The point of the matter is Sanders has a past and current track record of supporting civil rights above and beyond every other candidate right now.
The point of the matter is Sanders is laying out plans to deal with police brutality very directly. Here’s the same link I already gave you:
Racial Justice
Now, I have news for you… POC, nor any other group has any obligation to support BLM. As a matter of fact, the last protest tactic caused many blacks to disparage BLM afterwards who were on their side beforehand. That’s not good for the movement.
Fortunately for BLM, there are plenty of people (like myself) that support it and think it’s time for a change in tactic and want to engage in more dialog instead of shouting down allies with hackneyed talking points.
The BLM already supports the Sanders campaign and vice versa. Those that attacked Sanders on that stage the other day do not represent the greater BLM movement and they sure as hell don’t represent most blacks across this nation. If that contingent of the BLM movement continues to attack Sanders in that kind of partisan manner, then black people will shun them and look for a better alternative.
Fortunately for BLM (who does not represent all anti-brutatlity organizations), the Sanders campaign still supports them as do many Sanders supporters. And, by the way, please stop believing the corporate media hype that there aren’t many black supporters for Sanders.
When Obama first had rallies in in 2007, the overwhelming majority of his crowds were white despite the fact he had a lot of black support. If one does research and looks at picture of Obama’s 2007 rallies, you’ll see this.
Here’s 2007, Mr Obama’s open-air rallies draw huge (mostly white) crowds. Nevertheless, as the year wears on, Hillary Clinton stubbornly clings to her 20-odd per cent poll lead.
- source
This is Texas in 2007 with basically the same percentage of blacks that Sanders had.
Now, some have been questioning my premise that Sanders has a lot of black supporters. The reason I know he has them is due to the fact that I’ve been activitely researching the matter by looking at his social media support using time-tested methodologies.
Why would I be using my own research?
That’s due to the fact that the corporate media is very much relying on half-assed polling figures while behaving actively hostile and biased against the Sanders campaign. The corporate media’s actions have destroyed a lot of their legitimacy on the matter.
So, do you think my methodologies are wrong, perhaps? Well… something just happened that proves me right:
A more diverse crowd of about 30,000 people just showed up to his latest rally:
Quote: (emphasis mine)
" … The crowd was noticeably more diverse than those at recent Sanders rallies in Portland, Seattle and other majority white cities — Los Angeles is majority-minority, with about 44 percent of its population Latino.
Those who came to “Feel the Bern” — a popular chant among Sanders supporters — were white, Latino, black and Asian. There were young hipsters and graying hippies. Some wore black T-shirts with red hammers and sickles, others wore black T-shirts that read, “Black Lives Matter.” They sang along as the loudspeakers blasted songs by Willie Nelson, Tracy Chapman and Neil Young. … "
POC will support Bernie Sanders with or without the small, extremist element within the BLM. Sanders doesn’t need the BLM, the BLM needs Sanders.
Fortunately for the overall BLM movement, the majority of its supporters disagree with the tiny (but vocal) extremist element within it.
Most POC think that shouting down allies with hackneyed talking points instead of engaging in dialog is a bad idea whether it comes from a vocal minority of Sanders’ supporters OR from a vocal minority of BLM supporters that practice that tactic as well.
[quote=“Mindysan33, post:56, topic:63379”]
If you’re going to (unfairly) peg me as a Soros supporter
[/quote]I didn’t peg you as a Soros supporter. Again, please stop with the straw man shit. You said you didn’t have a problem with Soros being a funding source for BLM. I said why I think it can be problematic. Go back and read my post if you doubt this.
[quote=“Mindysan33, post:56, topic:63379”]
Many of these sites seem heavily weighted towards the democratic party…
[/quote]Then take them with a grain of salt. I know I do.
[quote=“Mindysan33, post:56, topic:63379”]
The American News X seems super-sketchy
[/quote]Right, go back and read my post. I said that those sites were sketchy. As a matter of fact, I labeled them as such just above the links.
[quote=“Mindysan33, post:56, topic:63379”]
you really shouldn’t be backing up your argument by using websites that tend to back the Dems.
[/quote]I didn’t make any argument. I posted it in this thread for people to look at and nothing more. I have no idea the validity of the information, but I think we should look at it. Nothing more.
[quote=“Mindysan33, post:56, topic:63379”]
Marching with king was great and the right thing to do. But it was decades ago. There are still issues here today that need to be addressed and these groups are telling Sanders what they want to hear. I hope he’s listening instead of talking over them telling them what they should care about.
[/quote]Speaking of listening, if you listen to any of Sanders recent speeches he very directly focuses on police brutality.
If some of the more counterproductive, radical elements of the BLM movement would’ve done more listening and research before attacking Sanders and his supporters the other day, they would have also known that Sanders has not only listened to those who are against police brutality, but also literally brought a member of the BLM into his own campaign as his Campaign Press Secretary.
This is Sanders and thousands of Sanders’ supporters literally listening to a member of BLM. Please, have a listen. (Do note her part about MLK)
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So it appears that Sanders has been adapting his message lately, specifically to cater more towards the activists that keep interrupting him. To me, this makes it clear that their pushing him has had actual good effects - and to attack them while praising Sanders is basically to be a racist ass ignoring the hard work and the gains the BLM movement has made in lieu of praising a white dude who wasn’t even doing the right thing until he was called out on it.
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@dragonchild12 has been responding indirectly to some of the content within my posts. This last post from @dragonchild12 was polite and devoid of off-topic personal attacks and I commend him for it. It gives me hope we can have dialog without personal attacks and have a constructive conversation.
@Falcor, with your permission, I’d like to respond to his post above (and only that post specifically) in kind (politely and on-topic).
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Nope, sorting it.
My problem is not really with Sanders… I agree he’s moving his message in response to BLM and that is what I wanted to see. My problem is with your insistence that they only politely engage with Sanders, and what you deem acceptable terms. I don’t think that’s fair or for you to say. You say you support BLM. That’s great. We all should. But - if you are white, I don’t know that you are, and I don’t want to make assumptions - if they are doing something, whatever it is, it’s really not up to you to police their tone or rhetoric. It’s not up to me to police their tone or rhetoric, or to step in if they decide they don’t want white allies in on their work. What did Stokely Carmichael say when he kicked white members out of SNCC? Go back to your own white communities and do the hard work there? I think he was well within his right to do so, yet there was a huge white progressive backlash from some.
And FYI, here is the response to the commentary that Hamiliton Nolan posted on Gawker yesterday, which lays out some of the problematic language he used and why it’s problematic.
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I am happy to see that he CAN be moved, however, rather than doubling down when he has done or said something problematic. Too many politicians just double down or change positions with whatever looks good in their focus groups. Sanders, instead has actively responded to real world criticism from a specific community and that’s what he should be doing, I think.
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You couldn’t be more wrong in this scenario. The last attack on Sanders is pushing both POC and whites in droves against aspects of the BLM whether they are currently Sanders supporters or not. Calling all Seattle Sanders supporters “white supremacist racists” and spouting absolute lies against Sanders as well is hurting BLM, not helping.
Fortunately for the BLM organization, most of Sanders supporters know that those who attacked Sanders and his supporters the other day are a fringe element of the overall movement against police brutality and racism. That’s why others and myself still ardently support BLM (overall).
However…
The longer the BLM destructively only focuses on Sanders and his supporters with those kind of vicious attacks while remaining absolutely silent on Hillary Clinton, the more people will be looking outside of the BLM organization for grassroots support against police brutality and racism.
The last scenario was a mistake for the BLM movement. It should never be repeated against Sanders again unless he does something to deserve it and he fucking does NOT, nor does his supporters deserve what happened in that last attack.
It’s very well beyond time for the BLM to go after Hillary Clinton who on an excruciating number of levels has shown that she will throw most of the BLM movement under the bus after she’s elected. Sanders will not do this. Unlike Hillary Clinton, both his past record and current actions in 2015 show this.
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[quote=“Mindysan33, post:93, topic:63379”]
My problem is with your insistence that they only politely engage with Sanders, and what you deem acceptable terms.
[/quote]Then you have a problem with the majority of blacks who are against you. The last attack on Sanders was met with overwhelming derision from blacks and many others like myself who otherwise support the overall movement against police brutality and racism.
Please stop treating the BLM movement like an infant that can do no wrong. It’s insulting and bordering on racism itself.
The BLM screwed up. Many of us within the BLM movement now know this. The BLM movement needs to adjust strategy over time and spouting outright, divisive LIES against Sanders and his supporters (while giving Hillary Clinton a partisan pass) isn’t productive, it’s the very opposite.
The BLM organization needs Sanders supporters (and the many POC that support Sanders), not the other way around. Sanders wants BLM supporters, he doesn’t need them. There are other grassroots organizations that are fighting police brutality and racism. If the BLM organization loses focus and allows itself to implode, it will be on the back of those who stupidly continue to engage in partisan lies against Sanders while ignoring Hillary Clinton, not supporters of Sanders.
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You know I can disagree right and that they can disagree with each other?
How am I doing that? You’re the one tone policing. For example, your insistence (not mine, or Sanders, but yours), that they protest people YOU think they need to protest - not the people they feel they need to protest. Given that this is a local organization, addressing local concerns, it makes sense to do this in their own context - at an event that wasn’t even a Sanders event, but an event where he was speaking, in protest of local progressive who they feel are ignoring issues of race in Seattle - likely because they feel they are being ignored:
So if they don’t “get in line”… then… what.
I feel like I’ve disagreed with you and been respectful - if I haven’t been I apologize. I wish you’d extend me the same courtesy.
You just made me spit out my milk and laugh at your absolute hypocrisy.
[quote=“Mindysan33, post:98, topic:63379”]
For example, your insistence (not mine, or Sanders, but yours), that they protest people YOU think they need to protest - not the people they feel they need to protest.
[/quote]Please get real. I am just one voice of many people that are very upset with BLM acting in a partisan manner.
You are the one who is telling blacks and other POC to shut the fuck up about the BLM movement, not me. Most blacks and other POC are very clearly saying that the last move from those who chose to shout down Sanders and supporters with outright LIES was wrong.
If you think we can’t say that telling lies is wrong, then it’s you that needs deep introspection, not all the blacks and others like me who are against it.
[quote=“Mindysan33, post:98, topic:63379”]
So if they don’t “get in line”… then… what.
[/quote]If radical aspects of the BLM movement don’t stop telling partisan lies against Sanders and his supporters, black people (and many others) will eventually shun that specific organization and look to support other grassroots organizations that are against police brutality and racism that don’t practice non-productive tactics like that.
I’ve already said this, please go back and read my posts if you missed it.
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Wow. Once again, I feel I’ve attempted to be respectful and you’ve accused me of being racist and of being a hypocrite. Clearly I shouldn’t engage with you anymore on this topic. I’m sorry that this is the case. I like you @Cowicide, and was seriously trying to find some common ground, and I’m very sorry that we can’t.
Good luck in your work for the campaign and for whatever activism that you do in the future.
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