Girl's Life v Boy's Life: "Do you Know When to Shut Up" vs "Jokes to impress"

Give me fucking break. While the “Do You Know When to Shut Up?” headline makes me want to barf like it does to everyone else, I like how implicitly biased and one-sided the original webpage and subsequent comments here are (forgive me if I missed anyone’s post making a similar point that I’m making — 64 comments is just too much for me to read.).

I like hiking and all, but I think I literally fell asleep before I read to the bottom of that Boys’s Life cover. Just because women’s media is way over-saturated with it, there’s nothing wrong with fashion. I’m just a “normal” straight guy, but I would read the “GL” way before I even glanced at the Boys’ Life, yet this discussion is framed in a way that presents Boys’ Life as “good” and Girls’ Life as “bad.”

Forget Feminism 101 for a second and how about… Masculinism(???) 101? Hey look, I’m a guy! I guess I must like (really) shitty typography and “gear.” Thanks, I’m gonna go barf now (figuratively) and go to sleep (literally).

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I agree with you 100%, but that’s not what the criticism of the comparison is.

In the world of magazines and the like, it’s hard to aim for a general audience these days. You’ll note the classic general-audience magazines like Time, Newsweek, Life, and so on either no longer exist, or are in very different forms with very little of the impact they once had.

But if your publication is for a specific audience, you can reach them and be successful. At Boy’s Life, the audience is boy scouts. Do boy scouts want a magazine full of general stuff - stuff they get elsewhere already (the internet, mostly) - or do they want something specific to scouting activities? The latter has a higher chance at having some value to them, and it’s something they can’t really get elsewhere.

There’s (apparently) still some sort of market for general-audience stuff, which is what this Girl’s Life magazine seems to be. Of course the “general audience” in this case is young girls from a certain socio-economic background, which is about as general as you can get and expect to be successful.

A discussion of gender stereotypes - especially in regards to kids - is valuable, but valuable discussions can obviously be easily derailed if the initial comparison isn’t quite fair.

Also, I personally think Boy’s Life looks pretty lame (and I remember thinking the same when I came across issues at summer camp as a kid), and Girl’s Life looks fairly reasonable compared to most such magazines (the ones that aspire to be Cosmopolitan for younger women). I’m a male who has done many outdoorsy things in my life (and I’m a geologist!), but I’m also into fashion and probably some of the other things Girl’s Life might cover.

According to the Census there were 9.8 million females aged 10-14 and 10.5 million females aged 15-19 (in 2008). According to a recent article, Teen Vogue has a total circulation rate of around one million while Seventeen has double that rate. Based on these numbers, it appears that 10-20% of teen girls are reading this sort of thing. To me this seems like a fairly significant percentage.

Link: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0007.pdf
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/business/media/teen-vogue-a-survivor-at-10-years.html?pagewanted=all&partner=rss&emc=rss

It is interesting to see how the covers of Seventeen have changed during the past 70 years:

http://www.theawl.com/2012/09/when-we-were-seventeen

If the actual content of your original argument is “try that in reverse,” then I don’t think you really have basis for claiming straw man fallacies when people attempt to do what you didn’t: construct an explicit argument.

I do appreciate your attempt to have a rational civil discourse, though.

Also, it’s clear you don’t understand deductive reasoning. If you are logically deducing that something is “likely,” then you’re not applying deductive reasoning. Deductive arguments lead to absolutely true statements, not likelihoods. What you are doing is making an inference; you’re not engaging in some logically orthogonal process that leads to certain conclusions that cannot be clouded by assumptions, judgment, or associations.

So empirical evidence is required for this statement, but not for the statement about most “clueless” people being white? Because in that context “deductive” reasoning is sufficient? Basically you’re saying that associations you agree with can be supported by “deductions” from “fundamentals,” while associations you may not agree with (such as a statement if you are sensitive and nurturing then you’re likely a woman) require empirical evidence.

face palm

BB is starting to take on the tone of Salon or Slate now.

So embarrassing. Man up guys!

I think people are pointing and accusing others of stereotyping, when they are simply trying to appeal to their audience. A magazine generally has a central theme or interest. Usually, one sticks to that theme or interest, with perhaps a few articles that venture outside the lines.

When one has an idea for a magazine, there are two routes they can go: appeal to a general, broad audience, or specialize in smaller niche audience. A smart publisher would do research, surveys and demographic studies.

So when you have something like “Girl’s Life” which wants to be appeal to a broad spectrum of girls of a certain age range, they will do surveys to find out what girls are most interested in. This doesn’t mean every girl likes every topic in the magazine, nor that the magazine can or will include every topic that girls may be interested in. Of course when you try to be the most things to the most people, you end up very vanilla and generic. They may occasionally do a feature or a short blurb on a less popular topic - such as reviewing a new video game. But the core of their content is going to be broad appealing and limited depth.

On the flip side you have the niche magazines. So while something like Glamour aims to appeal to a large populations of several fashions, something like Gothic Beauty focuses on one style and fashion and the culture around it. They both are going to have make-up and fashion tips - though they will probably be wildly different from one another. And it would make about much sense to include an article found in Boy’s Life in Gothic Beauty, as it would in Girl’s Life.

There are also many magazines of a certain themes that don’t have a gender specific topic - but they do have a bias as to which gender is more likely to be interested in that magazine and they tend to slant that way. For example something like Guns & Ammo may have stories about women shooters and have an ad for a women’s concealed carry purse or handgun, most of the articles will be neutral (a review of a product) or have a slant towards their main audience, men. Likewise the advertisers will cater to the same demographic. You might find an ad for a new truck, but you most likely won’t find the new Oil of Olay ad. On the flip side, if I pick up a new scrapbooking magazine, I doubt I’ll see an ad for Skoal.

Does this mean some women don’t like shooting, and some men don’t like to scrapbook (or that some women don’t chew Skoal)? Of course not, but the magazines and advertisers are going to cater to the core audience. It is also why you won’t see an ad for Duct Tape in Girl’s Life, or the new Taylor Swift album in Gothic Beauty. Read the Advocate? You’re going to see gay friendly ads. Read Essence? You’re going to find make up and hair tips for African completions and hair types. Doesn’t mean they are stereotyping because they don’t show you how to best blend makeup for lighter skin tones. Play Boy is male centric, even though it’s not only men who like to look at nekkid women. I said before in another thread, pre-internet I would read Cosmo as it was a great place to find info on sex, even though I am not their core audience, none of their ads and almost none of their articles were of interest for me or written with me in mind. When I read Vampire Freaks, I want to read about KMFDM or Combichrist, or Aesthetic Perfection - not Jay-Z or Cold Play. (Just like I won’t find any of the before mentioned bands in Spin.)

OK - it’s late and I am probably rambling a bit - but I think I’ve given enough examples to make my point. When it comes to media, everyone has an audience they are catering to. They can make it very inclusive, or exclusive. You might call it stereotyping, I call it catering to your core general audience. Will that “typical” audience member represent everyone? No, but how could it? It still doesn’t preclude others from enjoying it.

You keep telling me what I’m saying, and getting it wrong. I think I’ve been clear enough.

I was in the mood for a long debate earlier in the day, but its late now and real life has been annoying, so this discussion is just going to get even pissier than it already is.

If you want to claim victory on that, its up to you, but I’m out.

I’d be worried about making such big inferences from 2 very disparate magazines (albeit with similar names) that let’s face it no one really reads.

Obviously there is something going on that isn’t the greatest as this magazine exists. But it exists because the market is there for it. I doubt it shapes the market, the market likely shapes it.

Actual books children read would I think be a more relevant to look at and you’ll find no shortage of brave, strong role model type girls in children’s/teenager’s books.

I’d also argue if you want to blame anyone, blame the parents.

And you keep telling me I’m getting it wrong without showing how.

What you don’t seem to want to acknowledge is that you’ve constructed and internalized some sort of cognitive shortcut whereby you associate people who are clueless with regards to racial and sexual issues with white males. This shortcut cannot be justified on the basis of true logical deduction and is essentially a stereotype, and we all make them all the time. In fact, it would probably be difficult to operate on a day-to-day basis if we all didn’t incorporate stereotyping into our daily routines.

Actually, stereotypes are what happens when people use our cognitive capacity for generalization incorrectly. And most are based primarily on the smug assurance that “we” are better than “them”.

I can't figure out if your irony is intentional.

I’m glad that this isn’t the official magazine of GSUSA, but it’s still worth noticing and critiquing, since a) it’s probably meant to evoke Boy’s Life, since that magazine has been around for many decades, and b) it’s yet another example of young women being conditioned to a particular mindset from an early age.

Except that Studio 2B was a very short lived “girl scouts for non-girl scouts” kind of weird thing that started in ended in…what, 2007, 2008ish? Besides, GSUSA often does such partnerships without actually maintaining a relationship- just look at them licensing out the GS logo and cookie flavors to big companies to sell in grocery stores.

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I already stated that I recognized it was a flawed and imperfect comparison. I am not sure what else there is to say on that matter.

Perhaps then the issue here is not with their magazine, but with the organization as a whole. I will be the first to say that the BSA is a wonderful organization that does a lot for young men and for the local community. However, over the last few decades Girl Scouts has really expanded to include every topic of interest (badges that range from fashion and auto-mechanics; Journey series on science, healthy relationships, and the arts; outdoor programming such as archery, campfire building, and camping). Perhaps I am biased because I myself am a Girl Scout, but I would thinkg the BSA might want to reconsider expanding to include more diverse program offerings to appeal to more boys.

I disagree. Ranger Rick, Highlights, Kid’s Life, Popstar, Teen Vogue, Time for Kids, Teen Ink, M, etc, etc., are all magazines that don’t require a gender to sell. Fashion and gossip magazines will always sell and will therefore always exist, but there’s no reason to plaster “this is for girls” right on the cover

this is exactly my point. as a kid, you might have felt disheartened picking up something called “Girl’s Life” even though the topics interested you simply because of the title. Perhaps you even would have subscribed to both.

Your life lessons are as flawed as your argument.

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You do realise that contrast would highlight the exact same issue being presented here. So how would that be a better comparison? Surely this is just semantics, what part of the argument being presented does it change? If the boys magazine were for non-scouts, would it then carry the articles the girls mag does? If not then why does it matter that it’s for scouts?

I see what you’re going for but that funny doesn’t work.

To subscribe to organised religion, or to support a political party, you need to hold certain world views and beliefs. It is those beliefs that are judged, without which the relevance would be lost. That’s not stereotyping.

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I’ve never been in a supermarket (UK) where I haven’t seen a young child carrying a magazine fresh from the rack, or prodding a parent to buy one. They normally come with free plastic shit, which is like crack for kids.

Except that the commonly-held stereotype of a U.S. Bible belt Christian has little to do with the teachings of Jesus, but rather a caricature of the worst of U.S. Christianity.

Hoboy. I went looking on the Girl’s Life website to see if I could find the “Do You Know When to Shut Up” story, because I’m sure it’s the front-cover equivalent to clickbait (doesn’t look like it’s the current issue according to the website, but I might look at the bookstore later.) I suspect it might be the story about having the sense to know what not to post on social media. But I got distracted by this Sketchers ad:

Really? Really?

MacTastic wins the internets!