The idea that capitalism created “New World” racism features very heavily in Fanon’s Black Skin, White Masks, and it makes an appearance in CLR James’s Black Jacobins, though it has been so long since I’ve read it that I’m hesitant to make a more forceful claim. I’ll also add that my colleagues who teach history at our HBCU take it as a given that racism as we know it in the US developed out of the need to justify the commodification (enslavement) or dispossession (near genocide) of persons with dark skin – and to later (as is addressed in the work of WEB DuBois) play groups off against one another in the interest of keeping labor unorganized and low-paid.
I’m not saying that there aren’t dog-whistles, but it may be safer here to assume that someone in this forum is channeling ideas whose origin can be found in the work of people like Fanon, James, or DuBois.
None of that means it’s not a real force that has it’s own justification now.
None of them denied that racism is a real thing, rather than just a fake thing made up to divide and conquer. Whatever it’s ROOTS, it exists as it’s own force in history outside of what we think of as class (and intersecting with class and gender). In addition, plenty of people try to say that “social constructs” are not “real” when the impacts of those things are very real and right before our eyes. EVERYTHING in our society is a social construct… class is no more real than race or gender.
Pretty much the people who say it’s “not real” are white brocialists who have vested interests in maintaining racism and the patriarchy while focusing on the things that they see as directly impacting their lives. What @VeronicaConnor, @anon73430903, @anon67050589, etc are arguing is that those things have real impact on real people. I don’t think Fanon, James, or DuBois would dispute that.
I didn’t see anyone so far in this discussion denying the existence of racism, nor anyone who was saying that racism is not a real force which impacts real people. I may be naive, but what I think I saw was a somewhat old-fashioned Marxist appeal for people who are exploited in various ways to come together under the umbrella of class struggle. That’s why I pointed to a couple of old-school Marxists.
I know there are problems with saying we should unite under class – but to call for that is not the same thing as denying that racism (or any other identity-based oppression, like homophobia or misogyny) is real and pernicious.
I’ll go on to observe that when people like bell hooks or Audre Lorde pointed out the problems of what we now call intersectionality to talk about how people were marginalized even within nominally progressive movements like the women’s liberation movement, they often did it in the context of a broader gathering, like a speech at a women’s lib. rally, or for a broader audience within I guess what we’d call progressive movements. These were attempts to point out fissures within a semi-cohesive group – perhaps no more than a transient coalition – but they were still efforts to move forward as a class of people who needed to work together.
I’m not sure we’ve moved past that need. I’d like to see BLM and similar more narrowly-defined movements succeed on their own merits. I’d like to have each of these injustices be held up to the light, scrutinized, called-out. But reactionary elements seem to be burgeoning right now and to be forming surprising coalitions, like anti-vaxxers and white supremacists.
I saw a repetition of the anti-id political statements that I see on a daily basis from brocialists. They also tend to be anti-intersectional.
I seem to see yet more attacks on trans rights and (cis and trans) womens rights on a daily basis. I am stuck in Britain expecting atrocities to happen at some point in the future and trying to work out how to get out of here before it happens. To be told that is a distraction from the class war is at best insulting, and at worst misogynistic and transphobic.
I get that very real sense from the original comment we’re replying to. Once again, it’s a common criticism by brocialists of “identity” politics.
You can’t do that by denying people’s lived experiences. It’s the same reason people are pissed off at Dave Chappell right now. Calling something a “red herring” is most certainly denying that it exists.
Who really understood how these things fit together in the first place.
If people really expect us all to “unite under class” they first need to acknowledge that some of us have kinds of privilege that others don’t. My experiences as a solidly middle class white woman is not the same as yours, or others who have different experiences. Those layers of opppression aren’t just “red herrings” distracting us from the struggle. When women, POC, LGBQT+ are asked to unite under the umbrella of class, we’re often being asked to set aside our specific forms of oppression and to focus on the “real” struggle, as if our lives and struggles aren’t equally real. The other problems created over the past few centuries don’t disappear if we forge a workers paradise if there are people who truly believe that those other struggles are a “red herring” rather than a real thing that is historically situated.
Quite frankly, most of us who experience specific forms of oppression are not asking to ignore class oppression. We are specifically bieng asked to ignore the forms of oppression we have to deal with. Part of the reason why women are about to LOSE bodily autonomy in this country is because it’s considered less important or a niche issue.
You can’t do that by ignoring the specifics.
They’ve always had the shared view that their goal is oppressing others. But they often deal with infighting too. But I don’t think that they should remotely be our model for how to organize.
I stand by my statement; it’s never wise on anyone’s part to make assumptions.
Period.
I’m not sure that’s really relevant to the conversation at hand; too often far too many people will try to ‘redirect’ any discourse which makes them feel uncomfortable, especially when it comes to the topic of racial disparity.
I would like the same generosity in not being told that my experiences (and the experiences of others here) are a “red herring” that should be said aside for the “real” struggle.
I honestly did not see that anyone was questioning anyone’s lived experience. That is a mea culpa, not an excuse.
I didn’t hear the “quiet part” that was said out loud. In a reply I was typing to another post, I was copping to my deficits (in this discussion) which are partly privilege and partly how very scary it feels where I live. That is, it’s really loud where I am, and maybe I don’t hear so well, so I need to work on listening more carefully.
So, I’m going to shut up now. I will come back in a bit and read, to see if I can learn something that will help compensate for my deficits.
To anyone I disrespected or misunderstood, I really do sincerely apologize. I’ll try to learn to be better in the future.
Sounds like the case of Anna Brown where she went to a hospital for leg pain and they kicked her out and called the cops to remove her for trespassing and when she couldn’t walk to get out of the cop car the cops carried her by her legs, laid her on the floor of the cell, and 15 minutes later she was dead from blood clots in her legs.
WTF. That’s a new one for me. I’ll generously assume this is meant to be a reference to Zappa, but it’s still kind of creepy. @orenwolf , your thoughts on that username?
When one characterises the lived experiences of BIPOC and women as mere distractions from more important matters, that’s what’s happening. Indulgence in that fallacious line of thinking is the reason that brocialists and the “dirtbag left” aren’t considered reliable progressive allies.
unfortunately, it’s more like: it wasn’t that long ago that schools were integrated
that graph is for southern schools… which are apparently more integrated than northern schools because they were forced by the courts to do so
The south today is still the most integrated region in the nation for black students, but the trend has increasingly been away from integration. As the Civil Right Project has warned, “the direction of change … suggests that things will continue to worsen.”
it sounds like at least part of the reason is that more and more white parents are putting their kids in private schools ( which is the whole racism influences class which influences racism loop again. ) and also because courts and the feds have stopped enforcing the desegregation mandates
It happened in this thread, and it continues to happen, daily.
No matter how much undeniable evidence is presented, there always seems to be those who claim to be allies trying to foster uncertainty and doubt amongst those of us who actively fight against inequality and injustice.
