They seem to have settled on a ban of any facial coverings, religious or not. Though they did ban, first only, hijabs niqabs and the rest from public school. Which was followed by a blanket ban on any ostentatious religious display by students or staff. Which seems to be the trend in France (and Europe more generally). First focus exclusively on Muslim women, then when the bans don’t stick or controversy arises they expand things out into a broader ban, and then just enforce it on the Muslim women. Its an ugly situation. I’d expect this “burkini” ban to expand to the point where I’ll die from sun exposure if I ever visit a french beach. I require long sleeve shirts and straw hats to weather the sun.
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Yes… and then they talk about how it’s about helping them, not stigmatizing them. The interview I heard this morning on the BBC news hour program, the guy the anchor talked to doubled down on that very point, that HE knew what was better for these women then they themselves know.
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Just recently, police there cited a woman at the beach just for wearing a scarf over her hair (and who was Muslim). Someone in the crowd apparently shouted “Go back home, this is a Catholic country!” Which made me want someone to shout at them, “This is a secular country, go to the Vatican!” (Or even “atheist country,” given that these days, there’s more atheists than Catholics in France.) Perhaps someone should organize a group of people to go around to various locations in that region, such as churches and government offices, while wearing bikinis/speedos… after all, if certain types of attire are inappropriate for “security reasons,” that would be even more true in those sorts of spaces.
Are the police going to cite ethnically French women, whatever their actual religion, for wearing scarves at the beach, though? Racism definitely plays a part in this, besides the Islamophobia.
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Yeah those are the two, sort of self defeating defenses for it. The first being that these things are irreconcilable with France’s secular government and culture. But I’m not aware of any secular ideal that requires that sort of restriction of religion. And the narrow focus on Islam is curiously similar to suppressing one religion to the benefit others, which is the opposite of secular. And generally speaking at odds with the religious freedom thing that sits at the heard of the whole enlightenment, secular humanist thing.
The other one being that this is a magnanimous attempt to protect women from oppression via head scarf. Which is rather weird. We’re going to protect women from being forced to wear head scarfs by forcing them not to wear head scarfs.
Which is all rather weird given that these garments aren’t necessarily religious. I’m under the impression that there’s no specific religious dictate to wear these things in Islam. Its more a culture bound practice. Traditional of various cultures (in particular here Arabic culture) in the Levant. Though the practice is wrapped up in religion. Given that Islam has its roots in Arabic culture, and that part of the world the practice as moved and spread along with Islam.
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I know it’s wrong of me, but I look forward to the day they start going after the nuns for their head wear. Good luck with that, those ladies have rulers!
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There’s also a tradition among Catholic women, generally, of wearing head-scarves, too…
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Honestly, I think focusing on religion is just a fig leaf for trying to get Arabs/Africans out of the country.
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Yeah. Muslim women who don’t go for hijab often wear tankini and boxer shorts as beach wear, or just a standard-issue swimsuit.
But that is double-edged as well. When my uncle came to Canada in the 1950s, he had to switch from the plus-fours (think of the trousers Tin Tin wears) that were standard for teen boys in Europe, to long pants, because he got bullied at school. My mum couldn’t wear the hand-knit dresses my grandmother made her for the same reasons.
But the thing is, they did conform. In the same way, most regional folk dress in Europe died out in the late 19th century as everyone conformed to factory-made clothing.
I think that’s where some of this anger and suppression is really coming from. “Our grandparents and great-grandparents lost their regional identity – how dare you keep yours even after emigrating!?!”
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I don’t get it.
Usually when I go to the beach I wear something that covers most of my skin because I burn easily and don’t like sunscreen. I will remove it to swim, but get back in the loose cotton pants and shirt after-- would the French give me (a male) a hard time about this? Bans on burkinis seems to be completely about religious intolerance. What am I missing here? Is there some other public safety issue about that kind of swimwear?
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Does the ban apply to men too, or only women?
Which is indeed plain stupid, racists and other words I’m not using because raging mad. (For weeks now, for me this is old news). Because, but not only and the least of it, does this person know about head covering by Catholic woman, or nuns. Or even just in the country?
OK, deep breath. It’s not on all the beaches, and especially in the south of France where they have had very short ago a big attack. But thats still no excuse to tell people (woman… again… and again…) what to wear. Because other people are afraid? Yes, possible, but not reasonable. Please, people (in France/Europe). All of you.
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You hear really explicit statements of the same sentiment in the US these days. “But them mooselmans! They don’t assimilate!”. Never mind that one of the fundamental debates/concerns in US ethnic communities is over how assimilation can gut ethnic identity, and communities. For example assimilation is one of the foundational points of debate/concern in the American Jewish community. And where you do think all that dick waving over who’s more Irish comes from? (The answer bt-dubs is that I’m the most Irish. So fuck off) “Lace curtain Irish” is in an insult primarily because its an accusation of assimilation and distance from Ethnic/community roots. As is “plastic paddy”, the outward display of superficial Irishness in the absence of real connection to the Irish or Irish american culture. And I tend to think a fair bit of the current hand wringing over white identity politics/alt-right rights supremacy is down to assimilated whites who lack a specific ethnic identity casting about and landing on race instead. Seen a lot of think pieces about what a “white” identity looks like, etc.
Unlikely. These bans seem to be specifically against the birkini. In other words full coverage female swimwear with integrated head coverings. So unless you showed up wearing an actual birkini you’re not going to get caught up. Though if they’re vague enough wetsuits with hoods might count. But these sorts of bans in France have a history of starting with narrow focus on female, Islam specific dress, and then broadening out to defuse criticism. So if it follows that trend then yes your beach dress might technically be illegal. Though the impression I get is that in practice these things are seldom enforced on men or non Muslims.
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Sorry, I left my sociology degree in my other pants, I’ll come back later.
It might (although it’s not clear to me how the niqab ban is justified on those grounds) but the trick is that the ban is a local ordinance that is only in place until the end of August, so there isn’t any time to run an appeal through such high-level courts. And I imagine next summer when they re-institute the ban there won’t be enough time either.
In this case there does not appear to be any veil (sorry) at all on the focus. The ordinance was appealed at a regional tribunal, where it was defended on the grounds that appearing muslim in public is an incitement to violence. I want to put quotes around that but it was in French so you just have to trust me that the discussion has at times been just about as blunt as you can imagine.
Yeah but it’s the same as everywhere, people in big cosmopolitan cities tend to be more open to other cultures than people in small isolated towns. So maybe France has more atheists but my impression is that the religious have a lot more territory, and deeper roots too. Cannes and other parts of southern France comprise a good part of Marine Le Pen’s base. This is still a pretty religious country.
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Seems to me that a country dedicated to defending religious freedom (not to mention upholding Article 18 of the UHDR) shouldn’t allow this kind of law anywhere within their borders. That this is happening anywhere in France reflects badly on the whole country, just as many of the discriminatory laws once permitted in the United States reflected badly on our country.
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Absolutely nothing. A+ for comprehension.
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Poor Fox News doesn’t know what to make of any of this. They may have to start calling freedom fries french fries again.
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