John Smith.
I also have trouble believing a 4-year old is a terrorist.
6 Likes
Because no one ever gets falsely convicted of a crime? If we were talking about convictions, though, that would be at least a little more palatable. I didn’t see anything about the people on Delta’s no fly list only being those convicted of a crime. As far as I can tell there is no accountability beyond “corporate policy,” and that makes me very uncomfortable, especially if we’re talking about the possibility of a lifetime ban on all air travel with no right of appeal.
The fact that it exists doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. The number of high profile people who’ve been incorrectly banned by the TSA over the last 20 years makes me confident that there are many, many more people not in privileged positions who are unfairly stuck on that list. Do you really think an unaccountable corporation is going to be less likely to fuck people over?
I’m not trying to equivocate and justify the bad behavior of entitled assholes who can’t stand to wear a mask for a few hours. My point is that the airlines can’t be trusted to use their ban list only on people who justifiably deserve it.
6 Likes
3 Likes
How long before a jumbo jet interior designers start working on a brig?
1 Like
Once I made the mistake of watching one of those Discovery channel “documentaries” on transporting hazardous cargo. Occasionally interesting, but it largely served as propaganda for the shipping industry. And the last segment was on the “real” con-air, which further cemented its fascist gloss.
Oh, really…
I’m pretty sure that a passenger who assaults attendant[s] and/or other passengers would fit the description of a ‘Bad Person’, at least in that particular situation. ‘Bad Things’ is a very vague definition. Should nothing happen to them for their misbehaviour?
We can probably agree that, in a time of a Pandemic, those who refuse to get vaccinated, and refuse to wear a mask are endangering others, as well as themselves.
There are Governors of several States who refuse to mandate either vaccinations or masks.
This is the reality of what we are dealing with here.
And just what is this ‘incentive not to endanger others’ but a Bad Thing in the viewpoint of the offender? As far as they are concerned, wearing a mask is a Very Bad Thing…
So, you agree they shouldn’t fly if they won’t follow safety procedures. Wonderful.
I don’t think ‘stigmatization’ works on antivaxxers/maskers; they seem to use it as a badge of honor.
So, the airlines can’t refuse known jackwads from using their services? Is that it?
Please clarify.
Same here, but the government no-fly list has been plagued by problems from the start. Doesn’t make it right, of course & I would abolish the DHS {who the FUCK ever referred to our country as the ‘Homeland’ before 9/11/01…] if I had my way, & make policies transparent.
WE pay for this shit, so WE ought to know what we are buying…
If ‘corporate policy’ says that custormers aren’t allowed to assaut employees or other customers’, I can live with that.
If Company Policy says ‘Thou Shalt Wear A Mask’, and the State Governor says otherwise, which would you choose?
If this is a Death Penalty for that particular airline, no problem. Use a different airline.
Try to follow the rules, & try not to assault employees or your fellow travelers.
Those aren’t difficult concepts…
Doesn’t mean I do, either. I would just as soon see the so-called Patriot Act repealed.
Sure, if it costs them revenue and/or bad publicity in the process.
And this opinion is based on what evidence?
We both know the Government List is flawed.
@stinkinbadgers ‘buttle tuttle’?
Sorry, I don’t get the reference, so I don’t know whether to be amused, insulted, or what…
I already know I’m an idiot, so enlighten me.
The Discovery channel was one of my favorites when I had cable, many many moons ago.
The ‘documentaries’ are propaganda, but they do give some insight into the subject.
1 Like
Didn’t notice the reference to ‘buttle tuttle’, but the clip reminded me that I need to order that movie, so thanks for that.
2 Likes
The movie is set in motion when Mr. Tuttle is confused for Mr. Buttle due to an administrative error caused by an errant typewriter stroke. Hilarity ensues. Movie best watched with a stiff drink in hand.
3 Likes
And what makes you think the airlines would be any different? That seems to be the thing you can’t seem to grasp. The airlines will make a mistake, no question about it. How do you handle those mistakes?
3 Likes
Thanks for the reminder. I saw the movie when it came out [gods] 35+ years ago & probably wasn’t sober at the time…
Businesses seem to be sensitive to Bad Publicity, for some reason…
Bad Publicity usually seems to work.
“Delta’s 1600-strong list suggests multiple daily incidents serious enough to warrant arrests, deplanements and detours.”
“De Plane! De Plane!”
Wait… what are we talking about?
1 Like
This just in :
You seem to be acknowledging that the TSA no-fly list is not very good. Then arguing for corporate no-fly lists that would be worse than the TSA no-fly lists in terms of:
- Having no clear process and criteria for what puts someone on the list or chance for people to defend themselves
- No definite process for correcting errors when someone is on the list who shouldn’t be
- No clear limitation on how long someone who did what they’re accused of can be banned from air travel, nor clear process for being able to travel again. Lives are long. People change. A lifetime ban is clearly ridiculous and excessive.
2 Likes
“If they’re arsehole enough to do it on one airline’s flight, chances are high they’ll do it on another.”
I think this is actually unlikely. Getting banned from an airline along with whatever civil penalties folks might get, is more than enough of a consequence for the vast majority of these people doing these awful things. I would say most would not repeat their behavior on a second airline.
We see particularly egregious incidents on the web and/or ones that people want to get attention for them. We don’t see the 99% of them that the person isn’t looking for notoriety, they just stink.
(It feels like this has to be said: I’m not excusing terrible behavior. I think getting banned from the airline [at least for some period of time] makes total sense. I just highly doubt that after having that consequence many people would re-offend on another airline.)
1 Like
Absent real criminal and civil penalties as I described above, these types do re-offend even when receiving a permanent or temporary ban on one airline. Long before the death cult took hold, there were informal word-of-mouth watchlists in the relatively small world of American cabin crews about certain frequent-flyer arseholes (usually white, usually male, usually affluent) who’d get intoxicated, disruptive, and/or handsy and who just moved to another carrier and took their crappiness with them whenever they behaved so badly that an airline punished them by giving them a timeout for a few months. As @xkot points out, certain routes like Alaska, Vegas, and Florida are particularly bad in this regard (apparently routes in and out of Texas also attract dickheads).
It takes a special type of arsehole to act up in a pressurised tube hurtling through the sky where one is locked in with dozens of other people for at least an hour. These arseholes don’t learn their lessons, sometimes even if the penalty for their behaviour is high. If this type of person is not going to get dinged with five-figure fines and/or prison time for each of these incidents then there needs to be a more formal way (preferably government-supervised, with proper identifiers) way of making sure that he’s banned from flying any airline or at least that aircrews on all carriers are made aware of this bad passenger.
1 Like
I’ll point out that airlines can’t include hyphens in traveler names yet because when they adopted computerized records, the IBM Sabre 100 didn’t have a - key on their terminals. This decision was made in 1961, and has not been revisited.
I expect errors in identification will be handled with all the dignity and transparency afforded by DMCA copyright takedowns, which is to say, not much of either.
2 Likes
One of my favourite Christmas movies.
Also, should be mandatory viewing for anyone working in a large-ish organisation.
… and here is your receipt for my receipt.
3 Likes
I’m in favour of publicly shaming and inconveniencing these covidiots as much as possible, but I do think people underestimate what a nightmare the TSA no-fly list is for a lot of law-abiding people. Those with similar names, people who get added for no reason because they are suspected of something or have the same name as someone suspected of something, etc. There are tons of stories about this all over. I trust corporations to handle this well even less than the TSA.
I think requiring vaccinations to fly would go a long way to filtering these people out. The ones wanting to make a scene about masks are also usually unvaccinated. For the rest, I dunno, publish video of them on Twitter a lot or something. Let them all lose their jobs.
4 Likes
I’d say that the nature of the post-9/11 watchlists were the problem, because plenty of innocent people did get caught up… however, if someone gets banned from flying for making a scene over masks, it’s someone who DID cause a problem already. If that specific person, who we know did something that put others in danger, should they be allowed to go to another airline and do the same damn thing?
I think the difference is that the NFL was based on bad, deeply racist and Islamophobic “intel” from law enforcement of people who “might be terrorists”… These are actually people who are putting others in danger to make some dumb ass political “point” about their freedumbs…
I think you’re right about vaccinations, though. That might help. But then again, it’s trivially easy to get a fake vaccination card.
4 Likes
