Back when Republicans were the Democrats of their day. So, nope.
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By all means, this needs to be documented beyond doubts for the people responsible to be brought to justice.
This will not be an easy task. What I think everyone must do is keep a calm and clear view of criminal action or neglect of action.
What I see is outrage. I don’t blame anyone for it. But I fear that it might be misplaced, and even harmful because it fuels the divide in a situation where cooperation to save lifes is of greater and urgent importance.
You should know that I share the feelings and the sentiment. But we need you and others to build a waterproof case. And murder, as you called it in the other topic, will not be a legal issue Trump or anyone of his henchmen will be found legally guilty of, I am sure.
When I read that the state declares whole groups of people basically not worth the effort of saving, now that’s another matter. This needs to be stopped. Sue their asses, rush order, urgent procedure, whatever the legal term in AE is.
This must not happen.
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And they are … there is a triage team in any hospital, not a bunch of politicians.
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I don’t see the divide as being detrimental, when it is being driven by those in power doing despicable things to innocent people (like sending tens of thousands of ventilators to Florida, while sending a few hundred to states that need them more, like New York or Washington) and people who object to those despicable actions.
Going to metaphor here, but calling this a political divide is much like calling the struggle between one person beating another with a baseball bat, and their victim, a disagreement. The outrage is justified. The “divisiveness” is one-sided.
That’s exactly what the Trump administration is doing to whole states who he perceives as “the enemy.” New York, Michigan, California, Washington are all being denied the help they need because of either the fact that 60% of their population voted for someone else or their governor has been outspoken about Trump’s mishandling of the emergency.
As you’ve identified, there is a threshold where behaviors cross the line to open fascism. Why can’t you see that Trump has already crossed that threshold?
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You did read the article where they are discussing policy on rationing care? That’s not being made by doctors right now, but by policy makers. 
[ETA] @beschizza linked to the relevant paragraph on AL up at the top of the thread.
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I have worked at three Level-1 trauma centers and a couple of smaller hospitals … they DO have guidelines.
It’s a complicated real-time process of knowing what resources you have to use (staff, space, equipment), gauging the likely response to the treatment by the patients needing it (their age, current condition, complicating factors), and making a quick decision as to how to save as many as possible.
TRI - means three
Those who are likely to live, regardless of what care they receive;
Those who are unlikely to live, regardless of what care they receive;
Those for whom** immediate care might make a positive difference in outcome.**
It’s a cold equation … but if I’m the first on scene at a 3-car pileup and you are in cardiac arrest, you will stay dead while I take care of those bleeding to death. Because CPR would suck up 100% of me, and stopping bleeding can be done for all 3 very quickly.
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Yes … and they can discuss policy all they want.
The triage team will make the decisions based on the immediate circumstances in their hospital.
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I am pretty sure the Trump admin is neo-fascist, but I want everyone and you to stop shouting “murder” in an online forum at the world in general! If it is illegal, do something about it. And I am not suggesting vigilantism here.
Go for the original sources, and if you have documented them share them and help build a case!
You had the rule of law in the US. Neo-fascism is trying to undermine that. But to hell with that, it ain’t dead and gone!
Why is it so difficult to understand that, your example, the Nuremberg trials only did justice because they used documents, they used the law, they used justice?
What I see here is heated rethorics, and news sources which are under attack themselves as fake news. What I see is people posting, still somehow jesting slightly, about American Civil War.
We need a case. Not war.
We need brains, not just hearts.
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The American power structure doesn’t respond to calm - it’s considered consent.
We can be angry and still help out at the same time, We’re odd that way.
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No, because they are starting to interfere with the triage teams. Legal issues arise.
In practice, this might not be felt immediately. But if the state sets rules, or even weak guidelines who is not worthy based on social status, age, income, gender, political inclination or whatnot, this is unacceptable.
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I certainly believe so, but that doesn’t mean actual concerns about policy don’t matter. There are places like specific kinds of care homes which could be denied some of the equipment they need, based on who they have as residents.
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Yep. And triage teams are not completely divorced from the culture they operate within.
Devalued people were given unequal care and access immediately proceeding this pandemic. Whether it’s systemic or expression of personal prejudice or unconscious bias.
This will no magically disappear if we’re just quiet or clap louder.
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So very much this. None of us are immune to unconcious bias, especially in times of stress. Whether it’s hospitals, medical orgs, some group with disaster preparedness knowledge and medical expertise should set these triage rules, and everyone should abide by them, thereby removing the responsiblity for the decision by already-overworked front-line caregivers, and placing the politicians in the position they should be - enforcing the decisions of the experts.
One can only hope.
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They used the fact that they had already won the war, and were therefore in a position to try the Nazis.
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There are those who consider the Nuremberg trials a mere feint at some actual justice which wasn’t really attainable, then or ever.
For all the millions of Jewish people that were enslaved, killed and tortured during the Holocaust, only 185 Nazis were indicted, of those only 12 were put to death. Another 8 received life in prison. 77 others were given shorter sentences, of varying length.
That’s a fucking travesty, not “justice.”
Your apparent lack of willingness to acknowledge that the US is already well past the point of alarm because fascism is overtaking us smacks of denialism, which won’t save anyone.
Again… Never Again means exactly that; it means recognizing the existential threat before it becomes so entrenched that there is no stopping it.
It means taking action, and yeah… sometimes it means getting angry and channeling that anger into defeating our inhumane enemy.
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You don’t know me. You’re attributing emotion and implying irrationality to calm and reasoned arguments.
Also, you’re getting a lot of mileage with the “murder” thing, when you’ve divorced it from the context in which I used the word. It was Trump himself who made the comparison, when he said he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and his followers would still support him. My point was that, now that he’s killing thousands of New Yorkers, we get to test it, and should hold him accountable.
I’m not the one who brought up the Nuremberg trials - I wrote “something like war crimes tribunal” - but the comparison is apt. There were people who were tried and convicted in the Nuremberg trials who did not kill anyone directly. They just gave the orders.
Not exactly. See, most of what the Nazis did was technically legal. The good thing about the precedent of the Nuremberg Trials is that it set the standard that, committing legal atrocities was still punishable.
You imply that was me. I have not advocated violence or war in any way, shape, or form. I’ve commented against them.
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So now governors are sending him porn stars.
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And when the ability to provide care has been whittled down by Right-wing policies, the hand of medical care providers is forced that much sooner.
And then there is the “disaster plan”…
It’s an ouroboros of justifying further fucktitude with further fucktitude.
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Trump does indeed look in the mirror and sees a king.
I’m more inclined to see him as Fyodor Pavlovich Karamazov sneering while saying, Après moi le déluge.
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