Sorry about that; cluelessness strikes again.
Although it clearly isn’t the case here, all too often discussing the Founding Fathers with Americans feels like arguing with Weyoun.
11 Likes
FWIW, we aren’t a monolith.
For myself, I think they had some great revolutionary ideas, but yeah, they were basically White Male Propertarians. Arguably the best idea (of a few of them) was to regard the US Constitution as a living document.
9 Likes
No worries, it’s just been a few years now; we’re on the same page, though your ‘book’ is much more voluminous than mine… encyclopedic, even.
I know the Dumbening has badly afflicted far too many of my fellow citizens, but it didn’t get us all.
Jinx, buy me some coke weed.
12 Likes
Don’t want to prolong this, but you are still missing something important. It’s not about “superstar” work, just decent productivity - in the right direction.
It’s 20 years now since I designed a CAD drafting database for the utility, hired a CAD-specialist programming company to write it, spent a few hundred thousand. When sewer & water merged, it was extended to Sewer and was all re-written for both. But this brought IT in to supervise it all. The programming bill was $400K (same CAD company). The IT folks somehow managed to charge over a million just to, well, supervise and check and have meetings and document. I was pissed but my bosses sanguine.
IT also hated the whole thing because it was done in CAD, not their GIS platform, so they pushed and pushed it to be rewritten again within the ESRI GIS platform. 3-year story short, it was cancelled at $8M spent in 2013, still not up to the functionality of the 2005 CAD system. Which is still running. For $400K, the >$1M to watch them never having been useful.
So that’s a 20:1 ratio. Why do you think debacles like healthcare.gov happen? It’s not “superstars”, it’s ordinary work vs. monumental inefficiency and waste.
The decent work can’t be rewarded if it does avoid these disasters, because if you avoid them,you never know you saved $8M. You’d need a time-machine to investigate the alternate universe. In the “good outcome” universe, it doesn’t look like superstar work.
But courtesy of corporate bosses’ inability to understand IT - and their belief in their dept-manager opposite numbers (“he’s an IT manager, he must be smarter about this than my mere engineer”, I guess…) I got to see the alternate universe. Expensive trip.
My system is up for another effort at rewrite, discussions are proceeding; I’m retired, but my young successors understand the stakes and won’t let another debacle happen easily. But they are mere engineers, too, and IT has recommended a tentative budget of $10M. The system itself it still running fine and meeting all needs, so their argument is that it must “align with new software paradigms” or some such.
But I’m still very, very convinced that some people are worth 10X as much as others. And more. It doesn’t require superhero work, but avoiding super-stupid ideas.
I rattle on at this length because it may help people understand the Pentagon.
3 Likes
Remember Johnny - always be mean.
Otherwise you’ll catch AOC and then everyone will take advantage of you. You know how we hate to vaccinate.
I love AOC so. Still. And if she didn’t leave the burbs for the Bronx, she’d maybe be my Rep…
1 Like
To: “reactionabe”
The fact is, Amazon was under intense pressure from the media and politicians who were angered that New York City’s local government was giving away too many tax incentives, purportedly worth around $1.5 billion.
(Including the state government, the total tax break was around $2.8 billion.)
People had some ridiculous idea that NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio was going to hand a check for $1.5 billion over to Jeff Bezos, already the richest man in the world.
That’s complete nonsense.
The biggest part of the package was a tax credit that would vary based on how much Amazon paid its employees; it was capped at $1.2 billion over ten years.
Let’s assume it’s the maximum level-- that works out to be $120 million per year.
Now, in exchange for that incentive, how much tax would Amazon pay?
There’s been a lot of media attention about the fact that Amazon has hardly paid a dime in federal income tax over the past few years.
In both 2017 and 2018, Amazon’s federal tax bill was precisely $0.00.
BUT state and local tax laws are different than federal laws. And tax breaks that can reduce a company’s federal bill don’t always apply at the state and local levels.
In 2017, for example, Amazon paid $250 million in state and local tax in Washington, its home state.
New York tax rates are MUCH higher than they are in Washington State. In fact, New York City has three different methods of calculating corporate tax, just to make sure that big companies pay up.
So even if Amazon’s New York tax bill were just HALF of what it paid in Washington, then New York City would have been recouping more than 100% of its tax incentive EVERY YEAR!
On top of that, the city would have reaped additional tax revenue from countless other sources.
For example, many of the new Amazon jobs would have gone to people relocating to the city.
Even if just 10% of the 25,000 workers (earning $150,000 per year – “New York can proudly say that we have attracted one of the largest, most competitive economic development investments in U.S. history… with an average salary of $150,000 per year for the tens of thousands of new jobs Amazon is creating in Queens, economic opportunity and investment will flourish for the entire region.” said Governor Andrew M. Cuomo of New York.) would have become residents of New York, the city would have earned another $12 million per year in individual income tax revenue.
Property tax revenue would have been another $20 million per year-- JUST on the Amazon campus.
Then there’s the city’s nearly 6% hotel occupancy tax. According to company data, Amazon employees and guests accounted for 330,000 hotel room-nights in the Seattle area in 2017.
At roughly $300 per night for a decent New York City hotel, that would have been nearly $6 million in additional annual tax revenue alone.
None of this, of course, accounts for the gargantuan, indirect economic activity that would have been generated.
Just think about all the real estate agents who would have earned commissions on sales or rentals. Or the waiters and waitresses who would have earned tips at nearby restaurants. Or the countless small businesses that would have benefited.
25,000 Amazon employees would have brought billions in annual disposable income to the city, resulting in tens of millions of dollars in additional tax revenue.
The company itself estimated that they would generate an average $500 million per year in tax revenue for New York City.
Even if Amazon wildly overestimated, and the real benefit WAS LESS THAN HALF of that figure, New York City would have still earned more than a 100% return on its tax incentive investment!
(And that doesn’t even count the non-financial benefits from the primary school Amazon would have helped build, the tech incubator they were planning, parks and green spaces, or environmentally friendly construction.)
This is incredible. To put that in context, New York City’s pension funds earned an 8.7% return in Fiscal Year 2018. And they’re practically doing a victory lap for knocking out such stellar results.
Yet while they’re pumped beyond belief to earn 8.7%, they had a chance to earn literally 100% or more with Amazon.
And New York City wouldn’t have even had to put up much money; remember, the vast majority of the incentive plan was a tax CREDIT, i.e. Amazon would have merely paid less in tax each year to the local government.
So in terms of a ‘cash on cash’ return, it was NEARLY INFINITE. Anyway you slice it, it’s hard to see this as a bad investment.
Yet somehow Socialism won the day.
Ignorant masses, idiotic reporters, socialist bloggers, and their devious political heroes banded together to thwart prosperity in an endless Shock and Awe campaign against Amazon until the company finally pulled the plug on New York.
What’s probably more revolting is that these people are actually excited. They think that chasing away a near infinite return on investment is a major victory.
This is the direction that the country is turning.
Your fellow comrades don’t make decisions anymore based on facts. There is no rational analysis. It’s all emotion.
They get fired up because a rich guy might benefit. It doesn’t matter that the Amazon deal would have been a much-needed economic boost. They don’t even bother to think. It’s just straight to Twitter.
The same people are quick to say that New York doesn’t need Amazon… the city is going to be just fine.
Wrong again.
New York City is in a bad place financially. The pension is underfunded by about $70 billion, and the city government runs a multi-billion dollar budget deficit.
Just a few weeks ago, in fact, city officials announced that tax revenues so far this fiscal year were $500 million below forecasts.
Well isn’t that ironic! New York’s $500 million budget hole is the exact estimate of what Amazon would have contributed each year to the city’s treasury.
Congratulations, comrades. Another victory in your war on prosperity.
1 Like
i’ll let others deal with the rest of your post but this sentence shows you didn’t understand what kind of breaks the h2 was getting. under the program through which amazon would get tax abatements, it would be 25 years before they would ever pay a dime in property taxes. so while it might have improved things in 2045 it wouldn’t do much of anything right now.
20 Likes
“In contrast, the pension liability decreased by $8.5 billion due to strong investment returns and the City’s commitment to increase budgetary contributions. In the aggregate the City’s pension funds are now 75.9 percent funded.”
GAO pension funding standard:
“The GAO uses the 80% standard as the limit to what unions, public sector experts, and advocates view as a healthy funding for a pension system. It is frequently quoted by experts discussing planning and financial strategy and has over time become the defacto standard for assessing a plan’s financial health.”
They look like they’re doing pretty well - especially compared to previous decades.
14 Likes
Didn’t address what I asked for. So I didn’t read what you wrote. Pity. That was a lot of typing, comrade.
13 Likes
Prosperity for who? For a few fat cats, that’s who, at the increasingly rapid, immiserating expense of the rest.
Make that “Another victory in our war on austerity. And our war on ‘Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the rest.’”
15 Likes
I would like to correct the parts I highlighted…
Higher pay for all correlates with less inequality and, as a consequence, means that
Can afford a car → higher pay means that public transport will be faster than cars (as it often is in Europe and Asia)
Healthy food → higher pay translate into better control of food products and generally healthier population
Child care → higher pay often translate into public child care for all
Health care → higher pay correlates with public health care, generally lower price for health care and better health overall
Safety → higher pay is correlated with less crime overall.
6 Likes
And by ‘correct’, you mean follow how, over time, those points have significant and positive long term societal effect?
9 Likes
When economists declared that America had recovered from the 2008 collapse, more than 100% of the recovery had gone to the top 10% earners. That is, there had been no recovery, and in fact there had been a downslide for 90% of Americans.
In Trump’s first year his administration celebrated the highest median wages since the turn of the millennium That is, they believed 0% growth in median wages over 17 years was a cause for celebration. And the media and economists agreed.
During the recent shut down the media kept finding civil servants who were going homeless or unable to eat because they missed a single paycheck.
Most people can’t afford any more prosperity.
20 Likes
This is completely inappropriate. We do not require individuals to present research papers to have a voice here. We do not require commenters to be subject-matter specialists or to otherwise be skilled in the topics they discuss.
Readers are welcome to weigh responses from those who have indicated that they are subject-matter specialists or that have done their own research, but this isn’t quora.
If someone presents an idea or opinion that can be countered by facts, post those facts. This topic is a perfect example of lay opinions countered by factual research, and as a result, stands as a useful tool for anyone looking to read beyond the rhetoric and get to the specifics of these issues.
8 Likes
/s
9 Likes
No, you’re right, that’s fair. I was being far too smarmy about his reply, which was full of the usual junk math we’ve been seeing for 40 plus years now to suggest rich corporations not paying taxes is a benefit to us all.
10 Likes
Again with this “war on prosperity” nonsense.
Look-- so Amazon doesn’t come to NYC, they will go to some other state who will reap all those benefits NYC didn’t want. It’s not like they have been completely stopped in their tracks and now will never open an east coast HQ. Other cities are thankful that NYC passed. The “prosperity” that you say Amazon will bring hasn’t disappeared into thin air, and may go to an area that needs it more.
A “war on prosperity” is a great catch phrase, but it’s completely dishonest and designed to halt debate-- “well, I guess I can’t be in favor of [fill in the blank policy] IF that hurts prosperity.” Except all these scary socialist ideas don’t hurt prosperity. When people make a living wage they can buy more goods, so it helps the economy. When people aren’t afraid of losing their health care they can leave their jobs and start their own businesses. When people can get a decent education they improve the welfare of the entire community. But when people have no hope they resort to crime and drugs and gambling.
A common conservative talking point is “the unions ruined the American auto industry”-- except the years the US auto makers did best was when the unions were strongest (and a union job meant you could buy your own home and a new car), PLUS the auto makers that are doing best are the Germans and Japanese, both of whom have stronger unions that the US does.
Show us all how life in the social democracies of Europe is worse than in the US, because every study shows their citizens are happier, and yet they still have millionaires and their economies aren’t also disasters.
20 Likes
Oh, you and your facts! That is so cute! You know talking points trump (heh heh) facts every time. If these folks actually dealt with facts, either they would have to change their positions or their heads would explode. Or both.
14 Likes
