American Genocide

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Saying I’m putting words in your mouth by trying to follow your reasoning, where it’s not genocide because even if it does genocide things it doesn’t have intent to target a group even with examples that it does, and then claiming I ever pretended you were pro-Trump and making up motivations for me doing so is pretty fascinating in itself.

Edit: The truth is, I just really hate seeing people minimize that kind of deliberate torture of thousands of people, to the point where I often end up yelling in spite of myself. If it were about calculated choices, I certainly shouldn’t have engaged with it.

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The Topography of Terror Documentation Center is built on the ruins of the Secret State Police, the SS, and the Reich Security Main Office in Berlin. It’s a relatively new ‘museum’ – 10 years old this year – and very straightforward and thorough in its presentation of the facts. If you go and follow the exhibits chronologically, you will probably find yourself (as I did) gasping at the similarities between late-1920’s-and-1930’s Germany and our current situation in the U.S. (and a few other countries as well right now). It’s a painstaking journey into the entire process from beginning to end, which really shows how the horror kept building in waves from small things to the Final Solution.

Their website has 11 language choices; here’s the one for English: https://www.topographie.de/en

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By your definition (not the UN’s or Merriam Webster’s, as I have established) is the American prison system committing genocide against a population? What about the wars in the Middle East? Because if looking at all of these things and labeling them as “genocide” is a thing, I must have missed it in my heavy consumption of media including many very liberal media outlets over the years. When The Lancet published the seminal study looking at how many people in Iraq died, including civilians, as a direct or indirect result of our war effort, I do not remember seeing many people label that as genocide. Please, provide some links making the case that your definition of genocide is being commonly used for such things by progressive and leftist groups.

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I haven’t minimized it one iota. I have simply stated it’s not what the word genocide is used for, and it lessens actual genocides by deflating its meaning, and weakens our ability to combat actual genocide, should it happen, in the future. Your totalist view of what it takes to be critical of the Trump administration, and that is labelling it as genocidal, is not sound. It is not common, even in “woke, progressive” communities. Nobody has been able to provide one piece of evidence for it, or even link to any sources that make similar claims, including the main activist groups combating the Trump administration’s policies that are being pointed to. Why is that?

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You’re not being attacked. As a reminder, which seems like it has to be done every day, disagreement does not equal an attack. If the merits of your points don’t awe everyone into agreement, you’re not a victim.

No one here is saying you’re pro-Trump. But you don’t have to be pro-Trump to espouse damaging misinformation. Such downplaying of events by the eventual victims of genocide is one of the many historical parallels we can draw with previous fascist regimes.

And finally, I do think part of the disagreement here is because you’re insisting that genocide is not happening, right here, right now, and therefore discussing the buildup to it is a wacky, fact-free conspiracy theory on the same level as Infowars. As @chenille has pointed out, it has, in fact, started. But what we’re really saying is that the window of opportunity to stop it is closing. That’s based on historical fact. Once you have the proof you think you need to agree that, “yup, OK, guys, this is genocide” it will be way too late to stop it.

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Well, you can accuse me of espousing damaging disinformation, but then there’s the little fact that this discussion is about the fact that it’s actually what you’ve been engaged in. Maybe not a popular view with the ultra-woke bb crew, but I tend to look at things from a broader perspective which is one shared by many, many people who are against Trump. I have actually not ever seen anyone accuse the Trump administration of genocide or gearing up for genocide, prior to this bb thread. Not seen it in the mass media, the leftist media, online, or at protests. I have not seen speakers at marches accuse the Trump administration of genocide. This is the first time.

And if we have such a brief window to stop this genocide, obviously a very important thing to do if indeed that is occurring, what prey tell should a person do to combat it, right here, right now? Do you think you’re definitely doing those things more than, say, I am? And no, I don’t count fact-free rants on bb actual action. Tell me what I should do. I’m serious. Something tells me I’m… actually already doing all of those things, or many of them at least. Or does the fact that I (along with the vast majority of people including leftists and Democrats) will not label the Trump administration’s current actions as genocidal, somehow undo all of the other anti-Trump things I do? I’m not quite sure how the logic behind that works out.

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So, let me get this straight, how is this different than this conversation?

“Rape without penetration isn’t what the word “rape” is used for, and it lessens actual rapes by deflating its meaning, and weakens our ability to combat actual rape”

Because this sort of bullshit happens all the time surrounding rape discussion and fuck yes this pedantry derails the overall conversation, marginalizes rape victims, and there is almost certainly not one rape victim who thinks to themselves "Gee, it’s awesome that “real rape” has been saved from all these other people who are trying to co-opt the term.

This sort of shit is a particularly nasty form of tone policing. And pretty much amounts to a group of people on the “puritanical” side attempting to minimize the outrage and suffering of the other side by claiming their suffering and outrage isn’t “real” because they’re using a fucking word incorrectly.

First world problems, indeed.

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No orenwolf, I am simply saying that the word genocide has a meaning, I have posted it from both the dictionary and the UN website, and that the idea that a person is somehow making excuses for the Trump administration because they will not use the word “genocidal” to label it is wrong. I think we’ve established that not everyone agrees, and you know what? I can deal with that.

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Other than the dozen-or-so citations that have been provided so far? Or do those not count, since you’ve distorted the UN definition to not fit them?

I don’t know what you’re doing. I’ve said nothing to imply I’m doing more or better things than you are. Here’s what I’m doing:

  • protesting, live and in person, every chance I get, including ICE protests. Most recently it was against the Soleimeni assassination.
  • Get Out the Vote volunteering
  • I’ve scheduled vacation time for November so that I can do in-person polling observation and/or helping local campaigns in other states, since I don’t have to be present to vote locally. And I’ll pay my own dime to fly where I’m most needed.
  • I write letters to my own representatives (some of whom are Republicans, ew), senators, governor to push them to do more, to resist harder against Trump, and to prepare for when the worst happens.

My area is one of the areas where Trump sent his ICE goon squads. I’ve asked the governor to plan out a response with the State Police in the event they are used for unconstitutional military or police actions against vulnerable communities or against voters in the fall.

Will that do any good? I honestly don’t know. But doing nothing will accomplish nothing.

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See, we can agree on that. And I appreciate and am supportive of all your efforts. Other than to redefine genocide, of course. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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Smack facism. Plain and simple.

You don’t need to invoke the shoa to recognise that facism kills also today. History is not repeating itself, not even as a farce, but it can still inform us. We don’t need to equalise today’s fascists with the Nazis.

Nazi death camps are a historical singularity.

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Because The Killing Fields weren’t actual wooden barracks with Zyklon B gas chambers?

The details of rounding up and killing entire swathes of people might change, but it’s still the same horror.

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You can try your comparisons as you might, but it still isn’t equal.

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Point that you seem to be intentionally missing;

Many of us don’t want the level of unforgivable inhumane atrocity to EVER be “equal” to the Jewish Holocaust:

Not ever a-fucking-gain.

We don’t want to be a bunch of fucking ‘Martin Niemöllers’;
Selfish cowards who weren’t worried about the embodiment of actual evil consuming their entire society… until it eventually affected them negatively.

We are desperate to keep history from repeating itself.

This isn’t a competition; it’s a literal fight for the right to exist.

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There are no nationally recognized Native American tribes in the entire state of Pennsylvania- it not just can happen here - it has happened here.

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You should know me better than this.
I don’t have the remotest interest in intentionally ignoring the reality of your pain, your fight, and the personal danger you live in.

This is important to me, and this is why I interject in such topics as this. You should know me well enough to know why this is important to me.

If anyone's interested, I wrote more about it. My point stands above, I only add the same in more words.

Whenever someone equals the current administration with the Nazis, invokes Nazi concentration camps and claims the same thing was happening now, or talks about genocide as if the current policies in the US are equal to what happend in Germany between 1923 and 1945, they are on a very dangerous level of arguments.

And I am pointing this out exactly because I believe in NEVER AGAIN. Fuck the fascists.

My point is that the Kulturbruch (culture break) of the Nazi era is a singularity, and a precedent. We can recognise fascists for what they are and what they want because we have been there. We can fight them, and we can tell everyone where facism leads.

We do not have to equalise any incident, event, person or party with the Nazis. They who ruled since then are ethically evil on their own, and we have to smash fascism before it again destroys ethical humanity.

Let me be clear: I fully recognise your pain, and your fight. I would not even try to tell what you should feel about fascists today. I am, however, reminding everyone, every time I can, that the Nazis are not the same. The indescribable horror of the realisation what happened in Nazi Germany makes me very much about afraid what happens today. But it is not the same.

I consider today’s fascists to be as dangerous than the Nazis. Maybe even more, because using the technological toolkit and media available they might even stay successful.

Preventing that fascism wins means acknowledging that the Holocaust and murder not only of the Jewish people but of everyone not aligning to Nazi ideology is not the same as whatever you compare to it.

To me, the destinction is intellectually important, it is ethically important, it is personally and emotionally important.

I put this behind a summary because I don’t want to delete it, and it looks like a useless wall of text.

I know many here don’t understand what I mean and feel that I am wrong, or even impertinent. I do not want to derail further, but I wrote what I wrote in good faith, from the heart, and after very extensive reflection on the Nazi past, and fascist future. You have my word on all that.

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I know your words and your track record here in this community, which in my opinion, is high. I tend to hold you in high regard as one of the regular mutants.

That said, I don’t actually know you personally, so seeing you downplay the alarming… nay, dare I say, TERRIFYING similarities to the history of a fascist, racist regime rapidly gaining power is disappointing.

Because again, this is far bigger than just you, or me, or even anyone else here.

It’s about ALL of us, on the whole entire planet.

Your point may stand, but so does mine;

WE ARE AFRAID OF LETTING HISTORY REPEAT ITSELF.

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That is a common position, but it is not an undisputed one. Are you familiar with the writings of Aimé Césaire?

Or James Baldwin?

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I wrote this yesterday, before Ken temporarily shut down the topic.

Ken, I hope this does not completely counteract your endeavour to calm the mood.

I’ll try to rephrase, again.

I see similarities. I know you do, too. I draw comparisons.I know a bit of my own history, which allows that - moreover taught me that the Shoa must not be equated to current policies and politics.

It frightens me when people say “that’s the same as with the Nazis”. One reason is that listeners and readers just stop thinking at that point. Another is that it hurts the memory of those who suffered. Another is that I know for a fact that people in Nazi Germany did play along and were warned, and that my warning that we should not equate the Shoa and Nazi Germany with current events will be misunderstood as downplaying, in itself will stop people thinking and acting on their information that fascism is rising once again. I fear that some will feel that since even the US are ruled by an obvious neo-fascist the historical debt of being descendant and legal successor of the Nazis will not carry enough weight to smash the fascism on this side of the Atlantic. I fear that we loose focus on that is important, always: never to forget that this was possible, and this can be possible again if we don’t fight every day.

Ah, fuck it. I’m exhausted, ill and tired, and can’t think proper English. I need to go to bed.

This topic will likely close before I come back to it, but I’m really sorry that you guys have the impression I am downplaying the rise of fascism in the US, Hungary, Poland, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, the UK, Turkey, and many more “nations”.

I’ll say it again, today’s fascism is maybe even more dangerous than the Nazis. Today’s fascists can make former times totalitarian states loohk like an overshooting hobbyist endeavour.

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Best post you’re written in the thread so far! I hope you feel better.

An important reason to study history is to not repeat it. At least not the bad parts. I think we can agree on that.

What many of the more well-read folks did early in this thread was collate multiple data points not just from Nazi Germany but from other fascist genocides in the past few centuries - including the US genocide of Native Americans. By pulling together all the data points, we can get a much better composite picture of the process of going from [not fascist; no genocide]->[fascist, heavy bigotry]->[fascist; genocide]. We can also critically examine whether fascism always leads to genocide.

I think the reason that the Nazis draw the most comparisons is that the period is relatively recent, highly analyzed, and well-documented. You are right to suggest we look at other examples from history. You would be wrong (and your latest post tells me this is not what you’re saying) to say we shouldn’t look at Nazi Germany for analysis of the current situation.

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