And Whatabout Your Black People...?

Very meta. Well done. <golf clap> :wink:

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That’s exactly how people who use the fallacy (and others) look at discussions: not as an exchange of ideas but as a zero-sum game. It’s a shoddy HS debate club trick, which is why American right-wing dweebs from Gingrich to Putin-fanboi Carlson have always been fond of it.

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Probably India, Philippines or Vietnam.

Taiwan is off the table because both the South Korean and JSDF navies are capable of damaging a lot of China’s expensive and tough to produce blue water navy.

They have been harassing shipping in the South China Sea for a while. Philippines and Vietnam don’t have too many powerful friends.

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You are right on with this, plus there are couple of other possible goals. Derailing the conversation - maybe you can move the.conversatiom to being about your “whatabout”. Creating a false equivalence - you bring up something less terrible as your “what about” in an attempt to change perception of the offense you are arguing against. Simply shutting down the conversation - either by shutting down the conversation with your what about,bor by continually having another if one gets shot down - this achieved the same goal as derailing,bdinge the conversation becomes all about arguing against you bad faith whatabouts

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A friend of mine on Facebook is upset that Russia is getting kicked out of a bunch of sporting events, saying that it’s not fair to the athletes and that this never happens when other countries are the invaders and politics have nothing to do with sports.

I straight up told him, “Man, ain’t nobody wants to play a friendly game of football with the Russian national team right now.”

For the record, I do not believe that he is pro-Russian at all. He’s just very pro-sports.

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cool.
let’s then add anyone in the West and NATO who set Ukraine up, let it run up against the bear, then hung it out to dry. Against its will; Zelensky was elected, with 3/4 of the vote, to make peace with the Russian population in Ukraine, but -someone- didn’t let him do it and ran him into a military confrontation with them (Ukraine was bombing its separatist regions long before the Russian invasion; not that that justifies an invasion, but it did happen.) Then add everyone who’s setting them up now for an eternal guerilla fight, with just enough weapons to hold them off, but not win, which will turn their country into the next Iraq, which may or may not bleed out Russia. That is the visible interest of the US, currently, as it plays out.
And then let’s add the media clamoring for nuclear war.

I don’t remember who said it: A tankie used to mean “a Western supporter of communist countries”; now it just means “someone who understands global power structures beyond naive media stories”. And empty symbolism.

citation needed, otherwise you’re just bullshitting Russian propaganda. Putin is the ONLY one threatening a nuclear confrontation.

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I mean the calls for no-fly-zones and the reporting on how the US is trying to pressure Poland into giving jets to Ukraine, which Poland does not want to do, because they very well know that will start WW3. Much reporting conveniently forgets to mention this, though not all. A Washington Post article made clear what a “no-fly zone” means: NATO shooting down Russian jets. But it still didn’t mention that that is the route to nuclear escalation.

Also, as someone whos’ neither American, nor Russian, nor Ukrainian: Stop throwing around “Russian propaganda!” like this. It doesn’t help you.

There’s a notable difference between US propaganda and that of the non-Western world: non-Western propaganda tends to be deep, calm, referencing actual fact, but with questionable interpretation (Putin does this. China does too.). US propaganda consists of accusing others of propaganda, and then laughing, “y’all crazy! we would never! we’re the free world! how outrageous!” Which is cheap and insulting. Try watching Indian TV sometime (I’m not Indian). They invite Anglo voices, and that’s all those people then ever do: laugh, go “aw, shucks, US?”, look indignant at the suggestion that this is not just a one-sided easy thing. Based on the sheer assumption that people will assume “US good.” This works in US media, and then they’re surprised it doesn’t in other places, because there, people don’t trust the US, for long and good reason. Always funny to watch.

Sigh.

The US first announced Poland would send Jets -to Ukraine-, trying to pressure Poland into doing it by pre-announcing; old political tactic.

Poland then emphatically denied it via tweet when news outlets reported “Poland will send jets”. https://eurasiantimes.com/fake-news-poland-calls-us-reports-says-no-fighter-jets-for-ukraine/

Then, the US was pissed that their vassal wouldn’t go along. So Poland counterproposed, quite cheekily, that it would send jets -to the US- so the US could send them to Ukraine via Germany (biggest US base in Europe), with which Poland could wash their hands of direct responsibility: Poland says it’s ready to deploy all their MiG-29 fighter jets to US air base in Germany

To that, the US and Germany said no. That is your link, and was step three in this game of chicken.

That would be Putin, who supported the pro-Russian fascist militias in Donbas as part of his larger expansionist aims.

Citation needed. Putin and his cronies have been doing a fine job of bleeding Russia dry without any help from the U.S. or NATO, both of which were perfectly happy to let that regime relegate their petro-state to a kleptocratic second-class power all on their own.

Examples? Links?

Calls for no-fly zones are not predicated on the idea that nuclear war is something desirable.

In the years since the USSR collapsed the term has evolved to describe those so blinded by their rage at (very real) Western imperialism and neoliberal globalism that they’ll make excuses for the criminal and authoritarian activities of any regime that claims to oppose them. See also “Useful Idiots” (i.e. the type of person who naively spreads the talking points of regimes like Putin’s).

Yes, shrill demands that the world not call the invasion of Ukraine a war but rather a “special military operation” is the height of depth, calm, and factual accuracy. /s

“Understands” is a bit generous to describe someone (generic) who uncritically accepts and cites the news as spun out by outlet like the Eurasian Times (which seems to be mainly concerned with pushing a Hindu nationalist/pro-Modi line) or Glen Greenwald.

An assumption that’s never been the default on this site.

Which some would take as those countries accepting the only responsible decision after everyone (including Poland) tried every workaround they could to get the jets to Ukraine without risking a major escalation.

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It seems that this thread was needed after all…

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What with fuel prices going up all over we could do with a good old dumpster fire to keep warm.

/Possible sarcasm. I don’t even know any more.

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I was hoping it wouldn’t be needed but…

… indeed.

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Give Me A Break Reaction GIF by reactionseditor

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Donald Trump

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So you’re saying you think this is all very unfair to blame the invading army for invading and we should be nicer to them?

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Really and truly, Putin needs no advocates. He can spew just fine for himself.

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Whoever said it was lying about the definition of tankie.

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Not to mention that it’s not just wrong it’s also irrelevant. Why should I even care what is or isn’t a “tankie” anyway. I don’t like brutal authoritarian leaders and I’m still damned salty about how Russia tried to get one planted as President-For-Life here, and even if the US has done as bad elsewhere it still sucks because I still care about my own damned life, and so I support anything that weakens that strategy in my country. So… fuck a tankie.

Also my eye if Russian propaganda is calm. I’ve been drowning in it just like anyone else. Not even a little calm.

ANTIIIIIIFFAAAAAAAA KILLING YHOUR WOOOOOMIIN INTO MEEEN NEEED STROOOOOOOONNNNNNG MAAAAAN PROTECT MORE OIL AND GUUUUUNNN EU is NAZI BAAAAD WITHDRAW FROM NATO OR GOD WILL KILL YOU ALL BECAUSE GAYS!

Sooo calm.

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I feel quite rested and safe now. Much calmer. Not terrified at all.

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