I w as confused about the supposed existence of a large choice of games for women (you know, the non-splodey kind), but I think I found them!
(source) via WTF IS THIS FROZEN S**T?!??!
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You know what, we totally do. Good thing we have dozens of games in which female main characters have to avenge the kidnapping and/or death of their male loved ones! Oh, wait.
See, you made the point that Sarkeesianās critiques are a function of playing the game in a way itās not meant to be played. But the unavoidable story elements are part of that critique as well. There are possibly hundreds of games where a male has to rescue or avenge a female. Iām sure there are a few where a female does the same for a male, but I honestly canāt come up with any off the top of my head*, can you? The fact that one is seen as a perfectly legitimate storytelling trope and the other is not is exactly what sheās talking about. Whereās the trope for āmen in refrigeratorsā?
Edit: Wait, I sort of thought of one! In Lollipop Chainsaw she carries around the undead head of her boyfriend after almost-but-not-quite saving him from zombies. Iām not sure if that really counts, but weāll go with it.
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You could look at it this way ā when the men are āin chargeā their SOs get kidnapped or stuffed into refrigerators, necessitating SPLODEY KILLING BULLET VIOLENCE EXPLOSIONS.
When women are in chargeā¦ shit gets done, not bullshit.
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Is that a reference to In the Realm of the Senses?
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What, Lollipop Chainsaw? I donāt think so, but I could be wrong?
I believe if you win the game your boyfriend does get resurrected, so Iām gonna say it counts.
I made a critique that she demos video games dishonestly which, in my and the opinion of others, her demo of Hitman was. This is my opinion and I can not be talked out of it. Iāve watched the video and I think the way she presents it is dishonest. You and others may not think so, but I do and since thereās nothing but the video and the game on which to decide, no quantity of pontification will change my view.
I also believe that if an argument is sound the person making it will not have to rely on deception, dishonesty or misrepresentation to make it. If someone argues their points in such a way I think it brings disrepute to their entire argument and Iām unlikely to engage their other points with any seriousness.
I also said clearly at the start of this discussion that the player should be able to choose the sex of their character. As I also pointed out above, adding storytelling options is complicated by the same limitations of any business: money & time. Instead of snarkily making points on topics Iāve not even argued against (I agree that most storytelling in most media is lazy and riddled with stereotypes) why donāt you answer the questions I posed.
The questions I posed are serious practicalities that have to be addressed if games are to be made in the way youād like. Why are writers, for example, not criticised for making the protagonist of a movie male? Should the same criticism not be levelled at them? Arenāt the same storytelling challenges applicable to movies?
Re: the missing men in refrigerators trope, I think people are ignoring CodingHorrorās point above that men are, in general, more violent in nature than women. Refrigerators are a common place to put murdered bodies because theyāre big, they hide stuff good and they keep the ācontentsā fresh. If his figures on violent crime and demographics of Call of Duty players are true (and I presume they are) then isnāt it common sense to write a storyline as it would most commonly play out in real life?
Iām pretty sure I did answer a question you posed, since I quoted it and agreed with it. But Iām just an old, fat gamer so I canāt keep chasing your moving goalposts.
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The irony is strong with this one.
Very strong.
Am I to assume youāve somehow remained blissfully ignorant of the Bechdal Test?
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Iām still waiting to be shown where Iāve been deceptiveā¦ you guys can keep saying it, but that wonāt make it so. If itās true it shouldnāt be hard to point out.
Please quote where Iāve been dishonest, or take your white knight bullshit elsewhere.
Here Iāll make it easy by putting the three you ignored in their own paragraphs:
Should all movies come out as choose-your-own-adventure style productions in which your sex and the sex of other characters is audience-selectable?
Does the creator of the art get any say in the matter of their own creation or is the player god now?
Does oneās sex change their ability to understand protecting stuff/people you care about as a motivational influence?
Need I remind you of your 99.9% claim, which you doubled down on?
Edit: Oh, oh! White knight! Do I get a bonus square on BB Bingo for that? 
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Answer the rest of my comment instead of continuing with your idiotic semantics. No one plays Hitman like that but Sarkessian, because thereās no reason to. Someone could recreate the same actions with their dolls, and that would say more about the person doing that than the people who made the dolls - and in any case why the fuck would I care what someone does with their dolls in their own time?
You keep focussing on the 99.9% thing like you think itās won you the argument or something. Iāve explained why no one would play Hitman like that. See all those other words? Maybe try addressing them.
You can fill in your bingo card for this one:
I answered number 3, dude. Thanks for telling me you didnāt read my reply. No. Thatās why there should be as many games where WOMEN rescue MEN. Now maybe youāll answer my question about how many of those you can name?
Itās easy to see that youāve missed the point of the critiques. They are not to say āeverything ever should be exactly gender-equalā. They are to say āyou guys do this thing a lot in games. It gets kind of old. Maybe you should try something else once in a while.ā If every movie was a romantic comedy, wouldnāt that get super boring? I hate the genre, I know Iād be annoyed as hell. Itās not ānever make a romantic comedy againā, itās āmake something thatās not one occasionallyā. And plenty of people criticize movies for using tired old cliches as storytelling.
I have mentioned many times that the majority of my friends are in the games industry in some capacity. A lot of the guys tell me āI donāt agree 100% with Anita, but I didnāt even realize how often we do this thing in our games.ā THAT is the purpose of those videos. To offer a perspective that isnāt the majority white male perspective.
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I ā¦ know a guy who always used that image as his avatar. Av? Is that YOU?
You wanted an example of where youād been deceptive. I gave you an example of where youād been deceptive and dishonest. Now youāre getting pissy with me ā¦ why?
Tripling down? Thatās new.
Also, to parrot MBD; youāve missed the point of the critiques.
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But I donāt think whether we know whether such things are cultural or biological, or both (my money is on both, but Iād think that socialization might have a slight edge). If it has any cultural contingent whatsoever, it can be changed. We should work towards a culture that values all people, and Iām not sure that pointing to statistics (that are probably employed by the mainstream gaming industry to figure out what their customers will buy) is all that helpful in sifting through these problems.
The example you linked to in this comment - about kids playing with gendered toys - well, it doesnāt seem to take nurture into account (I think I remember that article from a couple of years ago). by the time a kid reaches even a year old, they have already been subject to all sorts of social and cultural messages from their families, their daycare, church, whatever. Kids at that age are little sponges and itās really hard to know what is hardwired and what is socialized. We can see differences across cultures, though, in regards to gender norms. That is something that can be measured and shown to better understand how gender is constructed.
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Okay, so it is your opinion, and you canāt be talked out of it ā thatās the point of owning oneās opinion: one can do with it what one wants.
But why is it so important that other people also hold this opinion? So important that you point it out more than once?
The plural of opinion is still BIG FUCKING WHOOP.
- How often do we hear about people getting stuffed into refrigerators in real life?
- Real Life? How many aspects of these game are like āreal lifeā? If you get killed in the gameā¦ is the game over FOR EVER?
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Thanks for telling me you didnāt read my reply.
I did read your reply, and I guess you did tangentially answer that question. What about the other two? My point was that I, as a male, can relate just as well to a female in a story as a male. Should there be more storylines written from a womanās perspective? Of course - as Iāve already said. Am I surprised that storytellers are lazy and shape their creations to their biggest audience? No.
I may have missed the broader point of her critiques because Iāve not listened to them. I think sheās misrepresented things and thatās why Iām not interested in the rest of what sheās got to say. Itās also not particularly a topic of interest to me because Iām the kind of gamer that skips cut scenes. Why? Because Iāve been playing games long enough that those were originally just filler to occupy you while the game loads - filler written by people who are not professional writers, so filler that is, unsurprisingly, poorly written. I donāt care about the story of a game, I care about the actual gameās dynamics.
Do you see anywhere in this thread or others where Iāve said sheās wrong and can fuck off? No, Iāve never said that. She is fine. Feminist critique is fine. Having this festering crap spread all across the internet every month or two is the thing Iāve got a problem with.
Sooo ā¦ thatās your reply when I answer the questions you were so anxious about? Color me shocked. Iām with @JonS on this one. Youāre not interested in an honest discussion and you havenāt even watched the videos so ā¦
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No, but itās a false analogy, because movies are a purely pre-recorded medium. Having an avatar is different because the player acts and is acted upon through it. Excuses of extra layout of time and money are mostly specious - if there are already female NPC models and skins in the game, there is no reason why they canāt be adapted as a player model with minimal time and effort. There are other fun reasons, such as different handicaps/stats for different body types, or just the fun of not only selection but customization. Itās even a draw for some games, such as Saints Row:
And, to address your other question about movies: Yes! Of course people criticize casting, characterization, and other such things in movies! There is a long history of this, as it is a much older medium.
As I had mentioned with regards to movies, prerecorded and interactive media have some fundamental differences. Of course the developer/artist gets to say what they are making. But arenāt you confusing this with being immune to criticism? If people simply donāt like what theyāve done, and say so, does this somehow strip them of creative freedom? It can take a thick skin to be an artist, because one is externalizing their perverted psyche for all to witness. Criticism can be good, bad, or indifferent.
As concerns games specifically, there are decisions to me made as to what ratio of scripted story or sandbox play are intended. Although both can be said to provide ānarrativeā in differing ways, based upon choices of what is included and excluded.
I am not convinced that sex changes oneās ability to understand protection. My experience is that the sexes are raised with differing approaches to both framing and solving problems. Various ways to think about situations tends to be a good thing, IMO, in both media and IRL. But it can be tempting to aim for a lowest-common denominator, because less choice = easier game development, and a decent chance that some people will be able to relate to it. But besides being uncomfortable for some people in the short term, I think it also becomes boring and homogeneous to more people over the long term. Why relegate ourselves to the same old roles and tropes over and over, especially in a medium where we can do practically anything? Many people experience enough banal relationships with people IRL, and donāt seek more of the same in games.
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