Anita Sarkeesian in Time's Top 100 most influential

[teapot]

@OtherMichael

But why is it so important that other people also hold this opinion?

Are you fucking kidding me? I don’t care what others think. I am the one being told what to think and that my assessment of her video is incorrect.

How often do we hear about people getting stuffed into refrigerators in real life?

Frequently in domestic murders committed by novices who panic and don’t have a plan for the body. Here’s one that happened in Australia in recent memory:
http://www.news.com.au/national/body-found-in-fridge-in-sydney-unit-could-be-murder-suicide/story-e6frfkp9-1226263884555

Real Life? How many aspects of these game are like “real life”?

The stories are based on a believable scenarios to supposedly engage the gamer more. I imagine being in an urban battle might feel somewhat like CoD.

If you get killed in the game… is the game over FOR EVER?

The buddhists would disagree that death is the end of the game. In some games you go back to the start and lose all progress which could be equated with death. If you want a once-only game maybe try Russian Roulette?

[anon73629133]

@teapot

Having this festering crap spread all across the internet every month or two is the thing I’ve got a problem with.

Great. You don’t love the OP. You don’t love the thread. You refuse to acknowledge the contradictions inherit in your own posts in this very thread.

So, uh, why are you dominating the discussion then?

[teapot]

You’re not interested in an honest discussion

Someone doesn’t agree with you, remains civil, raises numerous valid talking points which your side chooses to ignore and is compelled to defend positions I’ve not even made - and I’m not intersted in an honest discussion? Yes, that’s the ticket.

and you haven’t even watched the videos so

I’ve watched several of them. I presume you think Alex Jones is an asshat? How do you know that without having watched all his videos?

How dare you think that!? Just wait until the cheer-squad and I change your mind because you’re obviously wrong.

[Thebarton_Gamer]

It’s really quite simple then.

[teapot]

@popobawa4u

No, but it’s a false analogy, because movies are a purely pre-recorded medium.

I agree with that, but people seem to think development funds are an infinite pool. Any added complication to development adds cost. Games are business. If the studio thinks the added cost of making a choose-your-own-adventure style game will pay off in increased sales they’ll do it. If they think it won’t, they don’t.

Yes! Of course people criticize casting, characterization, and other such things in movies! There is a long history of this, as it is a much older medium.

Cool, so we’ve eliminated sexism and poor storytelling in movies then? I don’t have a problem with criticism, I have a problem with poor criticism.

I am not convinced that sex changes one’s ability to understand protection.

Me neither.

[teapot]

Cool, it’s been nice not having a conversation with you.

[manybellsdown]

By “choosing to ignore” you must mean the fact I repeatedly addressed your questions and you ignored the fact that I did.

@teapot

I may have missed the broader point of her critiques because I’ve not listened to them.

So, you watched them, but you didn’t listen. Got it.

@teapot

I presume you think Alex Jones is an asshat?

You can presume that, but since I don’t even know who that is, you’d be mistaken.

I have to ask, though. What, in your opinion, is Anita’s endgame here? Let’s assume she IS reviewing games dishonestly - what do you think her goal would be? For every game’s story to be rawr woman on top? But then you said:

@teapot

I don’t care about the story of a game, I care about the actual game’s dynamics.

So if she’s totally lying to change all the stories of all games ever to be woman-centric, why would it matter to you since all you care about is the mechanics? Wouldn’t you just shrug and say “wutevs” and go on playing games with excellent gameplay and ignore the stories?

[sfrazer]

@teapot

No one plays Hitman like that but Sarkessian, because there’s no reason to.

Yup. No one.

Not this guy: https://youtu.be/MVElJbjDqOs?t=755

Not this guy, either: https://youtu.be/2pTYmfklDoU?t=16

Certainly not this guy: https://youtu.be/Jy5dLYgu36U?t=117

Not this guy: https://youtu.be/NtdgEejvvYI?t=668

Warning for anyone not expecting it, but M rated game play behind all those links.

[teapot]

How are these paragraphs contradictory? One is a generalised response to supporters of Sarkessian who wish to eradicate the Gamergate basement-dwellers, the problem being that engaging with them is precisely the thing that keeps their voice audible. Trolls love trollfood: it shows they’re succeeding.

The other is a response to a single lined reply to me, posted entirely without context or prior engagement in the thread. If you’re saying that I’m posting without context: there’s a bit more context in my numerous comments than the hefty one line of name calling in his.

If you’re saying that I’m contradicting myself by responding to you and validating your viewpoint then you’ve missed my point: Gamergate losers’ arguments are fairly baseless, whereas critical review of media is not. Arguing against Sarkessian supporters is a valid pursuit because some of the issues she raises bear consideration and discussion. Arguing against gamergate losers is a pretty pointless pursuit because their arguments are shit, arguing against them gives their views air time, and most of them are trolling for the attention.

This is the problem: I dislike Sarkeesian’s material because I feel it’s dishonest, though I accept the topic is a valid one. So I state my dislike of her material which, in the eyes of her supporters, immediately puts me in the gamergate losers club. Instead of arguing against the specific points I’ve raised, people then spew the boilerplate talking points on the issue of sexism in gaming when all I’ve said is that I think the way she makes her points is dishonest.

@funruly

Let it all out, buddy! It’s you guys who are making this about me. I’ve constantly brought the subject back to the topic at hand and those points go ignored because it’s easier to discredit the person than the argument. If you were all so confident about the strength of your hero’s arguments you wouldn’t rely on those cheap tricks.

[sfrazer]

@teapot

generalised response to supporters of Sarkessian who wish to eradicate the Gamergate basement-dwellers

Straw man.

@teapot

I dislike Sarkeesian’s material because I feel it’s dishonest,

You know this without having watched any of her videos? Similar to how you “know” that no one plays Hitman in the way illustrated in her videos. That you haven’t watched.

@teapot

immediately puts me in the gamergate losers club.

No, it’s a whole different losers club you’re in. You’re like someone called on in class who hasn’t done the homework but is wildly spitting out what little you gleaned about the subject from people in the hall on their way to class.

@teapot

Instead of arguing against the specific points I’ve raised,

Your specific points are either straw men (“Should all movies come out as choose-your-own-adventure style productions” – no one is arguing they should), dumb (“Does the creator of the art get any say in the matter of their own creation” – the word creator implies creation, so yes, some “say” would have to be present) or flat out wrong (“No one plays Hitman like that”)

@teapot

when all I’ve said is that I think the way she makes her points is dishonest.

A point which has been rebutted several times now. You’ve accused other people of not addressing your concerns several times in this thread. I humored you and posted the transcript of the section we’re talking about. Do you recall your response? I do.

[codinghorror]

@Mindysan33

We should work towards a culture that values all people, and I’m not sure that pointing to statistics (that are probably employed by the mainstream gaming industry to figure out what their customers will buy) is all that helpful in sifting through these problems.

I would say “valuing all people” includes valuing entertainment that panders to all different kinds of groups, too. I think having lots of choices for everyone works best, and sometimes the best, most profitable entertainment scratches those itches that align directly with the level of testosterone in your body.

Or estrogen.

@Mindysan33

example you linked to in this comment - about kids playing with gendered toys - well, it doesn’t seem to take nurture into account (I think I remember that article from a couple of years ago)

Do you have kids? I do, both male and female. The differences are quite stark and are noticeable even before the first year is over.

Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

Educators should strive to teach all children, both girls and boys by acknowledging, rather than dismissing, their particular and distinctive educational needs

Substitute “gaming” there as needed. Just as true.

I’m not sure we need to live in a genderless paradise. I’d rather we embrace our differences and acknowledge the overlap. I am not saying gender is destiny, there is variation around the mean, but the two statistical humps are rather far apart when it comes to porny stuff and violence in games. I like to kill things for fun, but only digital things

[teapot]

5 losers did something, yay! Do you think they would have done that if it weren’t being recorded for youtube? Even if they did, what does it matter to you? It’s their game and it’s them who look like dicks for playing like that.

Also none of those videos depictions even come close to the deranged way Sarkeesian demonstrates this in her video. She drags the stripper across the floor without any reason, across another dead body while looking down at them for added gruesome appeal, before lifting up the body to place in the chest. If most gamers were playing this while not making a youtube clip or a feminist critique they would have picked up the body and immediately placed it in the chest without wasting time pointlessly dragging a poorly-animated ragdoll figure around the room first.

Women as Background Decoration: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Notice that all of the videos you linked showed guys being brutally and thoughtlessly murdered as well, whereas Sarkeesian’s video doesn’t and instead narrates the scene with a manipulative voiceover saying:

"The player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon, because they were designed, constructed and placed in the environment for that singular purpose.

Players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters. It’s a rush streaming from a carefully concocted mix of sexual arousal, connected to the act of controlling and pushing representations of female sexuality."

The player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon

She is apparently a mind-reader now. Actually, when I played GTA I left the strip club the instant the story allowed because I want to play the game not be taken on a storytelling adventure. Believe it or not I didn’t even murder one stripper!!!1! I don’t know how I achieved this, considering I apparently “cannot help” but do so.

because they were designed, constructed and placed in the environment for that singular purpose.

No they weren’t, they are the equivalent of extras that give the scene believable context. What kind of strip club doesn’t have strippers? Not a very good one, I’m guessing.

Players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters.

She’s also apparently able to decide what my and the game designers’ motives are because reasons?

It’s a rush streaming from a carefully concocted mix of sexual arousal, connected to the act of controlling and pushing representations of female sexuality.

If you say so lady. Why do psychologists spend all that time in med school when they could just study ‘social and political thought’ to make their diagnoses?

[codinghorror]

Well, yeah, that was also my reaction to watching her gameplay videos. It’s a lot of political / click bait spin. I wasn’t offended by it or anything, but she was working pretty hard to make the game look as offensive as possible and fit the narrative she wanted to tell. You know, comics code violations and all that, think of the children, etc.

I would not call her any more dishonest than any other extreme left or right wing blogger, though. This is how they all work. Standard playbook.

(That said, I do think game companies could have more nuanced depictions of women, and always, always offer a female avatar choice.)

[teapot]

Oh wow - another one…

Straw man.

Yeah, look that one up bud.

You know this without having watched any of her videos?

I didn’t say this. Who is setting up straw men? I said I didn’t watch all of her videos. How did I know that the Hitman scene existed if I had not seen her work? Is this your first day on the internet? Welcome!

No, it’s a whole different losers club you’re in.

Oooh - name calling! You win! Actually I’m like the guy who’s thought about this far more than you and have articulated my own opinion that doesn’t rely on repeating other’s talking points verbatim.

A point which has been rebutted several times now.

Obviously rebutted poorly if I’m willing to stubborn persist like this.

[teapot]

+∞

Totally standard playbook. We are obviously tuned to recognise these tricks.

[sfrazer]

@teapot

Actually I’m like the guy who’s thought about this far more than you and have articulated my own opinion that doesn’t rely on repeating other’s talking points verbatim.

Shall we take a vote on that with people left in the thread?

[sfrazer]

@teapot

No one plays Hitman like that but Sarkessian

@teapot

5 losers did something, yay! Do you think they would have done that if it weren’t being recorded for youtube?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-WVsA1TG3Mhw/UDHgq-tTdqI/AAAAAAAAAes/CLqIGagka54/s800/goalpost2.gif

[teapot]

So, you watched them, but you didn’t listen. Got it.

Sorry for not being absolutely clear with my verbs. I watched enough of her material to make a decision about her techniques. Listening is an inherent part of watching this new-fangled internet moving picture rectangle.

You can presume that, but since I don’t even know who that is, you’d be mistaken.

You know the ins and outs of this topic but you don’t know who a majorly influential right-wing commentator is? How is this possible? We are on the same internet, right?

What, in your opinion, is Anita’s endgame here?

She operates a feminist website, makes ad revenue from her youtube hits and gets fame and money from interviews and seminars. What possible reason could she have for being misleading to make her case stonger and stirring the pot to make people watch her videos and visit her site? I can’t think of one!

Wouldn’t you just shrug and say “wutevs” and go on playing games with excellent gameplay and ignore the stories?

Yes, yes I would. The problem is this bullshit topic keeps popping up in places that I frequent like BB. I figure that if I have to endure yet another pointless post on this useless subject then I might as well be a debate-ready thorn in the side of people who ignorantly want to wave the Sarkeesian flag without subjecting her to scrutiny. How is it fair that commentary on games is legit but commentary on the commentary is not?

Edit: Locked now because I was busy yesterday, but wanted to address these:

I suppose I can bring up someone tangentially related to the topic as well and decide you’re full of crap if you don’t know who they are.

No, but you’re getting so angry about this that you’re clearly just trying to attack me now instead of thinking about what I’m saying. Alex Jones was an example of a person whom, as proven by @OtherMichael 's comment, it’s pretty safe to make an assumption about the whole body of his work based on assessing a selection of it. That was my point, not inexplicably issuing credibility for whether you know his name or not (?).

Oooh, yes, for the attention. I should have known.

I didn’t say that, I said fame and money.

I wonder if you know which major, AAA studios she’s been invited to speak at about this topic. Surely she’d have publicized this everywhere if that was her goal, right?

Why would I follow someone whose arguments I find disingenuous and whom I think is an attention seeker anyway? If they are major studios, do you think they are not paying her? If so you are amusingly naive. She may also be on an NDA, like all the cool kids.

One wonders why you took the time to read it at all then. You didn’t have to. Possibly for the attention?

Because I don’t see boingers as my adversaries and am compelled to comment when I see otherwise rational people swallowing what I see as dishonest propaganda hook, line and sinker. I am also amused by the “like” boats on comments arguing against me on this issue because it doesn’t happen like that on any other topic. Probably because I am one of few people happy to politely(ish) express my unpopular opinion on this particular flamewar-inducing subject.

[sfrazer]

@teapot

makes ad revenue from her youtube hits

This is factually incorrect, by the way. One might even say dishonest, given that you linked an ad-free video of hers above. Some one once said that if an argument is sound the person making it will not have to rely on deception, dishonesty or misrepresentation to make it.

That guy was probably full of crap, though. I wouldn’t worry about it.

[gwwar]

No one plays that way? Next you’ll tell me that no one would possibly put buckets on every NPC’s head in Skyrim, or steal all their spoons. Sandboxes are fair game. People are weird.

Hitman is basically a macabre rube goldberg machine where every object and person can be set in motion, and your goal is to try and kill your target in the most comical way with the least amount of effort. If they were not intended to be used they wouldn’t be there or they would be unkillable like the creepy children in Skyrim.

And have you seriously never cleared out a level (in the silliest costume you could find) before playing the “proper” way?

Is Hitman fun? Yes. Can it be critiqued? Of course. We are after all talking about a game that thought that unexplained sexy killer nuns was a good idea.