"Anti-Semitism as we have never seen it before," quotes German magazine founded in 1947

It’s a conversation that needs and deserves nuance, and sadly, so long as people see benefit to the most reductive arguments, it won’t get it.

For instance, with your examples, there are folks (me among them) who would take issue with the anti-Zionism =/= antisemitism argument at face value, the same way that I get edgy when I hear people doing the “river to the sea” chant. I’m certainly not going to argue that the creation of the state was all sunshine and roses, but it does exist, and I’m not entirely comfortable with the “how” of folks who think it shouldn’t.

That said, I also feel there’s an important distinction between anti-Zionism and being against the expansion of settlements. One is a belief that there shouldn’t be a homeland for Jews, the other is saying that maybe we shouldn’t be shitty neighbors.
Comparatively, if the Proud Boys started putting up housing developments in the Navajo Nation, we can all generally understand that it would be bad, without necessarily saying that the US shouldn’t exist.

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Good on Greta.

I see her standing up for the oppressed, as per ush.

Spinning it that she can’t criticize Israel’s response to the Hamas attacks without being antisemitic is a logical fallacy.

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If I have any issue with her actions, it’s not so much the content (which can be interpreted without being over-generous as a call for a peaceful and equitable two-state solution of the kind both Hamas and Likud opposed) and more that she’s shifting her formerly laser-sharp focus on the climate emergency by bringing in an issue that’s tangentially related to it (at least in the context of a public demonstration on climate change).

This kind of dilution is an unfortunately common occurrence in progressive protests, rendering them less effective and opening the door for the larger protest and main issue to be mischaracterised and smeared by association by the mainstream press. I’m actually a bit surprised that Thunberg, who’s usually more savvy about these matters, fell into this snare.

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Most important is that you’re extolling thoughtfulness over anger - well done!

But you’re not suggesting that asserting an anti-Zionist attitude is the same as hating Jewish people the world over; that is, antisemitism…? (i have Jewish relatives who are decidedly anti-Zionist). Perhaps a bit of etymology might serve a small amount (or not)?: “Zion” refers to the land area (specifically a hill in Jerusalem) and not the people.

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oh. thats an almost perfect german freudscher versprecher. nicely done, rob.*

oh, and…the good days of Der Speigel are looooong gone. decades, in fact. so, no wondering there on my side.

*(“spei” is bavarian/austrian for “puke/puking”)

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First, keep in mind this: On the topic of the Israel - Palestine conflict

Second: antisemitism on the left is a very serious issue. Antisemitism in supporters of Palestinians is also a serious issue.

Which Der Spiegel chose to approach by publishing a hit piece on someone without attempting to interview them or anyone close to them. At least, none I could find. No “we attempted to contact Greta Thunberg for comment.”

Yuck. All the “is Great just lonely?!” “She was so unhappy as a child!” This article is very judgemental and condescending. The article is also all over the place. You can really tell 6 different people wrote it. Jumping from condescending judgement of Thunberg to discussion of antisemitism on the left to random climate activists and then back to picking up the “Greta is so lonely and unhappy!”

I really hope this was a translation issue. Because the the use of the phrase “Palestinian question” is pretty gross.

“When Greta Thunberg or other leading activists constantly speak about the Palestinian question, it creates disunity.”

Erjan Dam of the Netherlands, who tried to grab the microphone from Thunberg at a climate demonstration last Sunday in Amsterdam

I’m done reading this crap article.

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seriously?!? wow, thats low, even for them. (no, Im not gonna read it!)

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well yeah… not like we should take the political views of young women seriously… /s

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People are not “questions”… we all deserve respect, dignity, safety, etc…

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Anti-Semitism is resurgent all over the West, including in countries that don’t see themselves having a special responsibility for fighting it. I doubt Rob is unaware of the gravity of the situation.

Meanwhile, Thunberg has been aggressive in clarifying her stance when she saw it was being misinterpreted (sometimes deliberately):

We are of course against every type of discrimination, and condemn antisemitism in all forms and shapes.

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I wouldn’t recommend it. There are far more thoughtful, nuanced, and less biased takes on the problem of rising antisemitism and Islamophobia as a result of the conflict.
This thing reads like the authors wanted to take a dump on Greta Thunberg and decided accusing her of antisemitism was the best way to get clicks.

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Do you really suppose that people outside Germany don’t understand these complications? We are all living them. I can’t count the times I’ve been called a “self-hating Jew” because I oppose the settlements & support the rights of indigenous people to live on their homelands. I have lived in Berlin, in the Bronx, in the Southern US, in the Bay Area, & it is chilling to see anti-Semitism rising in all those places. But opposing war & genocide by militaristic nation-states is not anti-Semitic, any more than opposing racism is anti-white. We’re asking people to be better. And asking journalists to be better too.

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didnt read this magazine in over 10 years. cant stand and read their website either anymore for at least last 6 years. sometimes I follow a link, though.*

thats quite the mainstream in german media nowadays.

*edit/ I really cant stress this enough, it has its reason why this magazine is for the last 20 years sometimes referred to as das ehemalige nachrichtenmagazin (the former news-magazine).

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I’m not suggesting that, but I also don’t believe that something has to target every Jew to be considered antisemitic.

The issue I find with the phrase anti-Zionist is that some folks take the term as not supporting the actions of the Israeli Government, and some folks take it to mean that Israel, as a state, should not exist. I’m in 100% agreement with the former. I’m also perfectly happy to talk about the latter in a historical and academic context. I do find it problematic as a call to action.

In all honesty, I try to avoid using the phrase altogether at this point, because like I said, nuance.

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Pretty much every region of the world in which Jews are represented there are adherents to the concept of anti-Zionism (or as some prefer “non-Zionist”). Reasons are complex and range from opposition to secularism, the belief that Jews betrayed Hashem by leaving the promised land in the first place and that only Hashem can restore them to the belief that Zionism paints a target on the backs of all Jews worldwide as well as simple geopolitical calculus dating back to the foundation of Israel and England’s absconding of responsibility. of course, a lot of these beliefs are overlapping.

The impulse to represent all Jews or Palestinians as a monolith is another well-trod method of dividing people over broad assumptions about their beliefs and dehumanizing their concerns. What really concerns me at this moment is that virtually nobody is even willing to engage in talk of solutions beyond the immediate and reactive.

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punk band name in every post™

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No, of course I don’t think people outside of Germany don’t understand the complications. But I do think that the situation within Germany is uniquely complicated, and in ways people might not understand, if they lack a nuanced understanding of the history of Germany’s relationship to Judaism since the war. I don’t think you don’t understand that, and I don’t even think Rob doesn’t understand that, but I do think this particular piece doesn’t really do justice to the complexity of the situation.

I keep hearing a lot of concerns about anti-Semitism, which on its own is fair…opposition to what Likud is doing should not spill over into hatred of Jews in general, many of whom are just as opposed to it.

Somehow though the same people never seem to be concerned about Islamophobia, even though the exact same problems mistaking ordinary Palestinians and Muslims for Hamas are rampant. Almost like discrimination isn’t actually the real concern.

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But it’s COMPLICATED!

Yeah, sadly that happens far too often to Jewish folks who favor a peaceful settlement with the Palestinians. Thanks for putting up with that ACTUAL antisemitic shit (which you shouldn’t have to!) and for support the rights of Palestinians.

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I want to point to Ta-Nehisi Coates’ recent appearance on Democracy Now, and the “it’s complicated” argument often made about what’s happening with regards to Gaza and the West Bank Settlements…

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rob’s two paragraphs were about the article, and the german media – not the war. i think it’d be hard for anyone to do justice on the complexity of that situation.

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