In an age before modern detergent and oxiclean, the best solution was for everything a baby/toddler came in contact with to be white. Boil it, douse it in bleach, and scrub the heck out of it!
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Yep, white was the color of choice for the body of outfits. Ribbons, ties, and other accessories are what got the color treatment. 
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My 5 year old son currently has pink nail polish on his toes. At the same time he claims he loves all colours equally except pink. No idea where he picked that up, but apparently pink is okay when itās nail polish.
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thatās a good point. probably too subtle for the kids, though, but yeah ā setting an example and choosing one he wanted to wear wouldāve been a good thing, too. but heās already being so awesome, so i hate to quibble.
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I dunno, Iām torn on that. Yes, the lesson to learn is āwear what you wantāā¦ But sometimes, you just do fun things that your kids ask you to do because theyāre fun, and it makes them happy. His daughter said āDaddy, you can wear a dress too, and weāll all be matching!ā and he went along with it. He gets a dad high five from me for that. Reminds me of the time my daughter (who is 2) wanted me to wear a tiara with her when we went out on dayā¦ It was tiaras all around!
On QI they once had the question āWhy is Benjamin Franklin wearing a dress in this pictureā with a picture of a 4-year-old Benjamin Franklin. The answer, of course, was all children, regardless of their sex wore the same white dresses until they were about six.
But we donāt even have to go back a century. When I was a kid blue was for boys and pink was for girls but I donāt think the hysteria about that was so extreme as it is with my children. A part of the article that really stuck with me is when a gay friend of the dad reassured him that this didnāt mean his son was gay.
Aside from the absurdity of the idea that a two-year-old wanting to dress in his four-year-old siblingās clothes says anything about his sexuality, Iād be saddened if a gay friend of mine assumed I didnāt want my children to be gay. Itās sad that is seen as okay or understandable.
But I see it all the time. People become parents and any festering prejudices they have bubble up. Itās not just homophobia - white people donāt want to send their kids to schools with high populations of non-white children (those arenāt the good schools, apparently). Itās okay to be a sexist, racist, homophobe as long as you are doing it on behalf of children.
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Sure, it was just minor nitpicking for me really. As long as the kids get that daddyās not always going to do what you tell him to.
Agreed. Though Iām growing fond of tiaras.
Parents donāt want their children to be gay because we donāt want our children to be forced to face the hardships reserved for gay people. If you donāt want your child to be born blind, that doesnāt mean you hate or fear blind people - although thatās a poor comparison, because being gay isnāt a disability. But you get my point, right? Itās normal for a parent to want a child to have as easy a life as is compatible with their becoming a useful and self-actualized adult. Itās not homophobia or racism to want your child to be able to easily blend with the mainstream, itās just normal parental empathy and protectionism. I have several close friends who are gay, but I donāt want my children to be gay, although I certainly wonāt love them any less if they are, or try to make them anything they canāt be.
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At this point in our civilisation, the pink-is-for-girls and blue-is-for-boys crap is entirely because of market segmentation, probably the biggest evil committed upon humans by marketing departments worldwide. All the progress we made in the 20th century, being deliberately undone by suits who are ājust doing what sellsā, which coincidentally always seems to be the most conservative, regressive bullshit. Any time I have the misfortune to be stuck watching TV, or leave the ad-blocker turned off on a video site, Iām shocked at the insidious sexism, racism, classism, in TV-style advertising in particular. Housewives bringing their fat stupid husbands a beer, in the 21st fucking century! God! It makes me livid!!
Iāve been thinking about this for a couple of hours now. It feels like there is something wrong with this idea but I canāt nail down what it is. I guess I donāt like the world where there are special hardships for gay people and I canāt stomach living that way. I know that reality doesnāt warp to my will, maybe itās just a ābe the changeā thing.
Also, no accusations here, but Iāve heard that line as a cover-up for blatant homophobia.
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I can say whatās wrong with it. Itās the same reason that parents might not want to have a daughter. After all girls have a hard time in this world, too.
The argument that parents donāt want their children to be a certain way because the world wonāt accept them as easily is backwards. Parents really shouldnāt be worried about that. They should be worried about making sure that the world will accept their child - no matter who they are.
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You should stop right there and not go making assumptions.
I donāt give a flying spaghetti monster what my kidās sexuality is and what I want for them or not is completely irrelevant regarding a genetic trait. Thatās like not wanting my kids to have red hair or be left handed. Are you as greatly concerned about your left handed kids blending with the mainstream? I see it as just another aspect of who they are and fuck the mainstream, right in itās goddamned ear.
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@catgrin, @anon50609448, @SteampunkBanana:
Iām not capable of being the kind of parent who would sacrifice my childrenās future happiness to make my own socio-political points today. Thatās what this thread is all about, after all - for some reason many people seem to think itās weird for a male child to wear a dress (I live near Amish country so itās not weird to me) and weāre all applauding this fatherās willingness to discard popular opinions of appropriate attire in his desire for his child to be happy.
Now, if you are gay, or have friends who are gay, and you really have truly understood the problems that comes with, youāll have to acknowledge that itās easier to be straight. Are any of you going to deny that? Are you going to say that oppressed minorities are happier than the mainstream because their lives are inherently better than others? If you are going to make that statement, I canāt continue this argument, because I cannot accept that as an axiom given what I have seen with my own eyes. I know for a fact that my life is easier than the life of a gay man; in my own case nearly all my tribulations have been self-inflicted.
And personally I donāt get to choose whether I love my children or not. Maybe some people do but I donāt; the meat engine my consciousness inhabits is wired in a way that gives me little choice in such matters. I donāt really get to choose whether gay peopleās lives are harder or easier, either, although I do everything I can for equality. Recognition that my friends and family can be part of that minority is part of why I care about equality. It will take more than just my efforts to turn the tide, though, and thatās the reality. Again if you insist that Iām wrong, and I personally can single-handedly change the entire worldās state, I canāt argue with you because your axioms are impossible for me to accept. Reality is, and the reality is that itās going to take a long time to finish this job, and in the meantime my kids are here now.
Fundamentally, I donāt want my kids to have to suffer in any way that wonāt eventually result in their greater happiness. Thatās more complex than it sounds. Heroin injections make people happy in the short term, lack of discipline and education makes naughty or foolish children happy in the short term, but a good parent is looking at the long term, making every effort possible to ensure that long after the parents are ravenās meat the children will still be optimally suited to their environment. If you donāt believe that, go argue with Darwin. Part of being optimally suited to oneās environment is being as happy and self-actualized as it is possible to be. If you donāt believe that, go argue with Freud. The fact that the jobās inherently impossible - because we canāt really ever know what the future will bring - changes nothing, weāre still going to do the best we know how to do. I was born this way. I canāt help it.
And if you think Iām a bigot, I donāt know what I can say to convince you otherwise. Jefferson said our religion cannot be read in our words, but rather must be seen in our lives - and all you get to know here is my words. But I do try to speak the truth when it will harm no other, and so I wonāt lie to gay people and say that I wanted my children to be born gay. I didnāt; I hope they are straight. Iām sorry if that offends, but it is truth. I like vanilla better than chocolate, and it that offends, I cannot change my genes to make chocolate taste better to me, itās just built in.
Does that mean Iād love them less if they were gay? Well, if I was looking for a fight Iād make a counter-accusation here - something like āwhat the hell is wrong with you people, that you think I would love my own children less if they were a different gender, or race, or sexuality than what I might have wished for? Are you even human? How dare you suggest that I share such a disgusting attitude?ā. But Iām not looking for a fight, because Iāve enjoyed our past conversations, even on those occasions when weāve disagreed. Instead Iām hoping to clarify my point.
See, my daughter, despite having a lot of Mother Africa in her, has fairly straight hair. Am I a bad parent because Iām happy she has hair that is easier to care for than typically African sparse super-tight curls? I would have considered her hair dear to me no matter what, because it is hers, but nonetheless Iām glad itās easy to groom. We donāt live in Africa so thereās no advantage to nappy hair here. The only reason I didnāt want her to have straight hair before she was born is because it honestly didnāt even occur to me that she wouldnāt have curls.
And when our first child was born my wife cried and said sheād wished for a daughterā¦ because she wanted a baby she could dress in little hats. I am totally not lying; apparently the feelings of a hormone-addled human under stress are not necessarily logical or conformant to political correctness. Does that statement mean she doesnāt love our son, or that she loves our daughter more? Please. I can assure you thatās completely ridiculous. But she did deeply desire a daughter. Should she be castigated or punished for not lying about it?
Right now all my children, nieces and nephews appear to be quite straight, although some are still young enough for this not to be certain. That makes all of our lives easier. Iām not going to lie and say I regret this when such a lie canāt help anybody. Several of my friends and many of my congregation are gay, and I already like them the way they are, I donāt want them to change. I see no contradiction or bigotry here, but Iāll acknowledge that bigots rarely recognize their own cognitive dissonance, and try to keep my mind open to the possibility that Iām wrong.
PS: Banana, I didnāt want my kids to be right- or left-handed, I wanted them to be ambidextrous. In fact I tested them while they were still pre-lingual.
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That would have come across so much better if you had just written āwe donāt want anyone, gay or straight, to face the hardships currently reserved for gay people.ā
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Iāll leave it stand to keep the continuity of the thread, but you are so, so right. Thanks for the better version.
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My cousin is a dyke. One of my best friends, who Iāve known for over 20 years in California is big, gay teddy bear. Thatās just two of the people I know getting along swimmingly. (I also know boys who wear fishnets and skirts, and female truck mechanic, and more.)
I went to college in the midwest - Purdue. I met a very good friend there. She was outed when she started nursing, and sheās never looked back! In Indianapolis thereās a huge lesbian population. You just never know where those gays will show up, do you?
Me? Iām straight.
My problem is that Iām built like Jessica Rabbit and a total geek. You can imagine how that goes over with people. It hurts their brains. (I also happen to be left handed and have epilepsy, so I guess thatās a bit of a problem.)
Everyone has problems. Pretending that your child will be perfect and have no problems is more far dangerous to them than teaching them how to overcome them or deal with people who donāt understand them.
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Exactly. You make your own mainstream and you surround those having a hard time in any way as best you can with whatever support you can muster. Iām the straight family man outlier in a lot of the groups of gay people I hang out with, but itās irrelevant because they like me for who I am.
You give your kids the tools to not worry about the mainstream and if theyāre liked if theyāre left handed, black, too smart, too dumb, or gay, because they will be different in some way important to someone who is looking to mock them. So instead of hoping they are one way or another you teach them to ignore that guy completely.
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As long as you are busy having preferences for hair type, handedness, sex, height, personality and everything else under the sun, having a preference for sexual orientation being just another one of those things seems rather innocuous.
I think this is a side note, because I donāt care for noble lies, but if you think that saying that you hope your kids arenāt gay canāt harm anyone then I think you are wrong about that. Itās also a pointless truth if it is true. While a mother who has just given birth gets a pass for crying about hats, whatās up with hoping about something that you can have no control over when it could serve no possible purpose other than to make a gay person feel devalued? That hope is at best nothing and at worst a brief but detectable flicker of disappointment on your face when your kid tells you they are gay.
I find this impossible to resolve. The tension between suffering and adding up to their greater happiness - how could we possibly know what falls on what side of that? I know that some people who are gay have a lot of problems because the interface between being gay and the culture I live in. On the other hand, many people who are gay donāt, and if you asked me to name the happiest people I know my gay friends would be over-represented.
Iād probably like everyone to suffer less than they are going to, but if I start hoping that they are a certain way rather than that they have certain experiences I donāt see how that isnāt devaluing the people who are the way Iām hoping they arenāt. Itās one thing to look at statistics and say that gay people are worse off than straight people, itās another thing imply that an individual that they are worse off because they are gay.
The only thing I really want for with my children is that they are girls. But thatās because I am crazy bigoted against men. I honestly do worry that I wouldnāt love my son (this may be a stupid worry, but Iād rather not find out it isnāt). I also wish that they donāt have serious birth defects or terrible genetic illnesses as well, but I honestly wish that no children have those, so itās not really the same thing.
Since Iām being disastrously truthful here, Iāll agree you probably shouldnāt adopt or stepmother a boy or young man, because that might be a real issue under those circumstances. But if you bore a child of your body, or adopted a newborn, your feelings about men in general almost certainly wouldnāt transfer to your feelings about the baby. Itās really vanishingly rare for conditioned feelings to be able to overcome millennia of evolution in this regard; I think we find child abuse so viscerally horrific because deep down we know itās fundamentally unnatural for us to fail to love our children. Babies who arenāt well loved before age three develop attachment disorder; we are built to love and we need it, biologically; a mother will love because we humans are made that way. I hope that was a confirming and assuring statement, but given my record for getting my ideas across here, Iāll settle for you not being insulted. :\
@SteampunkBanana, I donāt understand how you get to choose what your hopes are. I can ignore a remarkable amount of pain, for example, but I canāt magically make myself stop hoping it will end. Itās no more controllable than the color of my skin (less, really). My hopes and emotions are an organic part of my being. Did you see what Brainspore said just above? Maybe that will make things clearer.
@catgrin, I think you are confusing my desire for my childrenās happiness with value judgements; youāre thinking that because I hoped they wouldnāt be gay, that means I think gay people are inferior or something. I donāt think they are inferior; I think they are oppressed. I donāt want anyone to be part of an oppressed group, people should only be oppressed if theyāve individually chosen to do something that deserves sanction, not because theyāre in a less favorited part of somebodyās Venn Diagram. However, I am not going to pretend that nobodyās being oppressed, like you guys seem to be insisting I should, and Iām not going to pretend I want my children to be among the oppressed, either. I agree with everything youāve said (my children are not and will probably never be part of the mainstream) but I donāt see how that has anything to do with your objections to my emotions.
