Barbaric, backwards ancestor worship

http://www.fastcompany.com/3029762/how-a-popular-two-letter-word-is-undermining-your-credibility

So we should abandon two thousand years of common Germanic grammar and usage and usefulness because … plain English undermines our credibility?

Yeah I’m tempted to go to the opposite extreme and start half my sentances with yeah. Wulfila started a good many with jah.

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I find this analysis to be really misguided. If people are using ‘so’ as a particular marker to set up a certain kind of dialogue, then it is useful to keep using it. I don’t think my workplace uses this word in this way at all, so it doesn’t really apply to me. But think of how helpful it is to know that the person is giving you the public, rehearsed version of the story when you are processing the story. If it is appropriate then you can probe into the behind-the-scenes, non-rehearsed part.

If the point of the article is to say that you should try to communicate in a more honest and fulsome way without relying on semi-rehearsed descriptions then I’d say that’s bullshit because those semi-rehearsed descriptions have their own use - you should just be aware of whether they are appropriate or not for a situation. If the point of the article is to go on using your little speeches but to drop the signifier that tells the other party you are doing it, then I’d say that’s intentionally trying to create an information disparity between you and the person you are talking to as part of a kind of con-game. To me, that’s not the point of communicating, but I’m sure that for many people in the business community it is.

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Shrugs.

I just linked that because I remember seeing in recently and @MarjaE was asking why someone might not like it.

I don’t have much of an opinion on it, personally. Probably should have stayed schtum.

I agree, this article made me feel gross. toward the end, I kinda wanted to throw in their face the use of

In psychology, it’s what’s known as a “marker.”

with a comment titled “How A Popular Phrase Is Undermining Your Credibility”, which would discuss how the phrase “In [insert field of science here] it’s what’s known as…” and how that signals to your readership that this is just another vapid business advice column that shoehorned in a complex idea using the most superficial and broad meaning in order to try to look more legitimate.

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Sorry if all the 'you’s in my response made it seem like I was ascribing these ideas to you in particular. I was just disagreeing with the linked article.

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Re: the “initial so”

I first became aware of it in my regular listening to “Quirks and Quarks”, a radio interview show covering topics in science. The host might ask “how do you know that there’s an actual effect there?”, and the guest would reply “so we use a control group to provide a base…”

Twenty years later, it still grates (especially as it seems to be the norm now). To me, “so” means “as a consequence of” or at least has a sense of following something. It sounds to me like the guest is ignoring the question, and continuing a train of thought that was never there. I expect a different bit of English nonsense: “Well, we use a control group…”

With “so”, it seems the guest has rehearsed a monologue (which I don’t object to) and is ham-handedly superimposing it over the question and answer format provided by the host (which I object to).

So that’s my objection to it.

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You might enjoy seeing this - a friend of mine is working on this stuff:

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If you listen to enough NPR, you hear it all the time, and not just in scientific or technological conversations. The NPR interviewer will ask the guest or call-in expert-of-the-moment something, and seven times out of ten the guest will start their next sentence with “so.” It really does come across as “now begins the rehearsed part of my speech, since I know I only have seconds to get my point across and I know what I have to say next is the only reason NPR put me on the air right now so I better keep it pithy and to-the-point.” It never sounds like a natural conversational segue; it always comes across as a rehearsed pitch to get the following idea quickly poured into those ignorant radio listeners’ heads.

It’s annoying to me because it doesn’t sound like the expert is really listening to and responding to the host’s questions in real time, but rather sounds like he or she was simply waiting for the cue to begin dispensing the expertise.

Whaddaya gonna do? Just because someone is an expert in their field (or at least knows enough about it to be interviewed on NPR) doesn’t mean they’re especially comfortable with extemporaneous conversation on the radio. But yeah, I do find it grating, and I do feel it undermines the message, if only insofar as it makes the speaker sound like they had to memorize a script rather than knowing their stuff backward and forward right off the top of their head. Not a fair judgment, to be sure, but the effect is nearly as unconscious as the cause is.

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To me, the question is, would you rather they practiced not saying “so” but otherwise acted exactly the same? You’d hear the same rehearsed words in the answer to the same question, but without the signifier.

I feel like “so” there is a lot like “we need to talk.” It’s purpose is to put the listener in the right frame of mind to understand what is about to be said to them. “Please switch your brain to listen-to-spiel mode now.”

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I don’t follow.

People have used conjunctions to introduce sentences since the earliest surviving Germanic literature. People have also used auxiliary verbs to mark tense and voice since the earliest surviving Germanic literature, although this coexists with some use of inflection to mark voice in Gothic.

I don’t see how that argument that we shouldn’t use “so” to introduce sentences in English because we don’t use conjuctions that way in proper languages makes any more sense than an argument that we shouldn’t use “will” to mark the future in English because we don’t use auxiliary verbs that way in proper languages like Latin. At least as far as I can remember.

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I fear you’re being too subtle for me; I have no idea what you’re referring to.

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I think you missed my point.

That was never my argument. Some may argue that conjunctions shouldn’t start a sentence. But not me. And I’m quite on board with starting sentences with conjunctions, if that’s what it takes.

My argument was that in this situation, “so” seems to mark the continuation of a dialogue or thread that is not there, an unexpressed thread that is present only in the speaker’s rehearsed, imaginary version of the “conversation”.

I understand: “We need to determine if there’s actually an effect, so we use a control group.” But: “How do you determine if there’s an effect?”, “So we use a control group…” rankles.

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So, the way I see it, leading or finishing a sentence with “so” is useless noise, and not communication, so…

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It makes for a jarring segue. Radio hosts generally make it their business to be cordial, always thanking their guests at the end of the interview (and waiting for the guests to thank them back afterward, which I almost never hear on, say, BBC’s Newshour so I always get the impression that Tim Franks is kinda rude), and are pretty conversational, generally taking pains to make both listener and guest-expert comfortable with the back-and-forth. The “so” speakers generally don’t seem to have that particular level of comfort with an extemporaneous interview, and the “so” seems to underscore that. It sounds kind of like an “um” with this key exception: saying “um” while one takes a second to gather one’s thoughts makes it sound like one is actually listening to the query.

“What’s the likelihood that these recent heavy rains might help assuage the longer-term effects of the current drought?”

“Um, well, even though my car is currently floating down the street, we have to keep in mind that we’re actually some seventeen inches of rainfall short of where we’d historically be at this time of year…”

When the interviewee leads off with “so,” on the other hand, it doesn’t sound like a back-and-forth conversation, but rather the spewing forth of a prepackaged infodump.

“What are the implications of the Curiosity rover measuring an increased level of methane on Mars?”

“So the samples were measured by the rover’s onboard Sample Analysis at Mars laboratory…”

I honestly don’t mind hearing prepackaged and pre-rehearsed sound bites, but to have them underscored by the “so” grates on my ears as surely as an “um” would grate on the ears of any 20th century elocution instructor.

I find that unnecessary. The same purpose is served by the introduction of the guest. “My guest today, straight from JPL across the arroyo, is renowned Noxious Martian Emission analyst Josie Whatshername.” After that point, I generally put myself in that listening frame of mind without any further cues. :wink:

do you find fastcompany to be consistently credible? I don’t.

I’d never heard of it before.

Given the direction this conversation has taken, I’m not the least bit surprised.