Even when women do negotiate, they still are less likely to get raises:
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Just posted another link on that. Thanks.
ETA: Also, negotiating can backfire on women as well:
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Plus the reeds, right? Oboe reeds wear out – flute mouthpieces, not so much.
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Keep reading. I recognize the reality of all this. But recognizing that the system itself is unfair may not produce the specific outcome here that is desired.
And the time it takes to get those reeds just right.
When I was in my teens, I played in a community orchestra that my cello teacher conducted. One time he was playing as a soloist instead, and the oboe player was having some reed difficulties before giving the tuning note, so he got out his knife and was doing whatever oboists do to their reeds. My teacher says, “Take your time, Tom, I’m just going to whittle a new bridge here.”
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Your overall point seems to be that this is systemic, which we agree on. That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t sue over her particular case. It’s still sexist, even if it’s how everyone else is doing it.
In that case, what should women do? We need a systemic overhaul, which we will not get without laws that MAs. What’s your suggestion for fixing this systemic issue. Seems to me since men still tend to be in powerful positions with regards to salaries, they have to be part of the solution, too.
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I think our arguments are exactly the same. I guess for better or for worse I’m just pessimistic about the outcome. I don’t have the answer to create systemic change here. But I also doubt that this will become the platform for that change. To be clear: she should sue (as she is). My intention has just been to point out the difficulties that the case is going to face that are the result of the systemic issues in place. That’s, to me, the reality upon which the case may be narrowly decided, despite reasonable ideological arguments to the contrary.
The sanctity of the echo chamber must be sustained, but at this point I reckon that she has public opinion on her side and that the BSO is already receiving death threats from people who don’t care about such questions in the slightest.
It’s not just systemic, it’s also individual though. She is addressing the direct situation she finds herself in, as she should. Will that translate to larger systemic change? Maybe not right away, but the fact that there is a law in MA that will likely have consequences for the BSO is helpful. I think we need to remember that institutions are not neutral, and that institutions can be employed to change each other in a way that an individual would have a hard time changing them by themselves. So, if the state can change BSOs practices through some sort of civil punishment (a fine), it seems more likely that less powerful institutions in MA will change their practices as well.
Historical change is never a one and done thing, it’s a gradual process of shifting mindsets and shifting institutions.
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The BSO itself is not alive. the people who work there are, however.
I’m gonna guess that she as an individual is getting plenty of death and rape threats as well, probably more than the people who run the orchestra. Also from people who don’t give a shit about flautists and classical music.
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I recognize that, and it will be nice if the courts decide in her favor. And I certainly agree with your broader point. But if we’re talking about institutions not being neutral, I guess we have to see what the courts decide and in what ways the BSO chooses to argue against the suit. I remain skeptical that this will work out in her favor, but sure.
Presumably, they’ll enforce the law here? I suppose they could find it unconstitutional (under MAs state constitution).
Given the amount of backlash this stuff gets, you’re right to be skeptical. I’m just trying to find a ray of light in a world that is increasingly hostile to my gender.
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Well, that’s never really stopped some people. More realistically, I suspect the BSO is highly vulnerable to boycotts, either directly or of their sponsors.
There are probably people who think she’s in league with the secret lizard government, too.
Yes. Worse than a woman getting death and rape threats. But as you say, those aren’t real or the people issuing them aren’t a real threat to her…
As for BSO being vulnerable to boycotts, perhaps they should do the right thing and not underpay her in the first place. But I suspect you’d see that as somehow unfair.
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From Wikipedia:
Peter and the Wolf is scored for the following orchestra:[10]
Brass: 3 horns in F, a trumpet in B♭ and a trombone
Percussion: timpani, a triangle, a tambourine, cymbals, castanets, a snare drum, and a bass drum
Strings: first and second violins, violas, violoncellos, and double basses
Woodwinds: a flute, an oboe, a clarinet in A, and a bassoon
Without timpani and oboe, there is no Peter and the Wolf. That would be a tragedy.
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As would the Czech composer Andrei Griminik-Hergromenik-Indecipherable’s Symphony No. 45 without the fiddle, trumpet and french horn (spoiler: it’s really a German glockenspiel).
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Not really agents, but usually a lawyer, if they are smart.
The other thing we don’t know is whether the disparity started at hiring or developed over the years. I did a little digging on an old forum to see if her previous position was permanent or a one year appointment (these happen) and found a post noting that BSO had gone quite a long time without a tenured principal flute; that they had difficulty filling the position should have certainly given her a certain amount of leverage.
There will be a minimum overscale specified in the CBA, but at that level most everyone negotiates, which means no, they are paid whatever they can negotiate.
More:
The only other thing I can say is that there are a lot of weirdnesses in this niche business. Certain instruments are used far less but make the same. Violins play a billion more notes than the 3rd trombone but everyone makes the same. (ETA: there are also asst principals and certain players that double on multiple instruments that will also get a percentage extra). Otherwise it’s only these principal positions where individuality comes into play for salary. It’s a weird convergence of art and commerce. Sometimes insisting all principals be paid the same feels like insisting Led Zeppelin and Madonna should make the same amount of money. They are artists in a market for artists, and everyone brings a different level to it. And levels do change over the years, though in this case I have no info to believe this is the case here.
I do wish her the best and I’m positive she would not have done this without doing her homework and having an airtight case, and I hope when she wins it puts something of an end to this sleazy practice which always feels a little out of place in a mostly collectively bargained workplace.
ETA
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Can’t you replicate those two things with a decent Casio Keyboard? Hell we should just program the whole thing electronically. Make music by machines 'cuz they don’t make mistakes.
And applicants need not provide it. It’s now illegal in California to require or even ask for prior salary, for example.
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Case in point, newly minted “traditional” style Mexican ballads with Casio trumpets. Nothing grates on my ears more than a pseudo-horn section that sounds exactly the same every time.
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