If anyone is interested on the background of the current movement for independence of Catalonia until the 2017 referendum, and how they had to organize the referendum after having exhausted all procedures and negotiation with the Spanish state, there is a good summary here:
http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/background/timeline/
It’s a good point to start the investigation.
I studied them last night - plus White Terror via wikipedia. Help me understand doe!
Before corruption, referendums, people in streets, police. Why Separate. Why does essentially a city want secession. What’s gained. Or what’s objectionable about the rest of the country. What’s the roots of a them and us mentality. Linguistic? Is there an issue having dual identities. Is it an economic wealth sharing issue. How did a 350% population increase affect regional attitudes.
Just curious. To me its like San Diego wanting to be separate. Independence suggests some sort oppression, economic, cultural, national. Which clearly doesn’t exist. And every turn I take analyzing, I come back to something racist. As oppose to a something noble. Why not celebrate the little cultural difference? why separate. It’s negative. It’s fear. Or greed.
However you look at it, this Rajoy and his People’s Party are at the heart of the conflict. As they’ve scrambled to cover up their own party’s corruption, they’ve also exacerbated a situation in Catalonia that could have been resolved peacefully. Instead, they first dealt in almost cartoonish bad faith re: limited autonomy and then made things even worse by applying the apparatus of state violence on a political basis.
I’m generally opposed to separatist movements in the West, but if I were a Catalan I’d try to escape rule by these corrupt and violent PP clowns any way I could (I assume the current Spanish political system makes this effectively impossible for them under a normal national election).
If the ruling party is meddling with the independent judiciary in order to cover up its leader’s corruption, that a pretty serious grievance if one cares about liberal democracy.
And if that same government continually undermines an already limited autonomy agreement and eventually uses riot police and imprisonment against those who protest their operating in bad faith (both within and outside Catalonia), that’s an additional sign that political oppression exists.
ETA: that in addition to the economic conflict, as @DukeTrout describes immediately below.
It seems to me that those committed to Catalonia remaining a part of Spain might be better advised to focus on kicking out Rajoy and the PP rather than vilifying those so desperate to escape his rule that they want complete separation.
I won’t claim that my understanding is anything but superficial and second-hand. What I have read and heard is that the background may be cultural and political (the brutality of the Spanish Civil War is still infamous, almost a century later), but the current conflict is largely economic. Catalonia contributes a disproportionate amount of taxes and doesn’t see reasonable investment from the central government. There was an attempt at solving it politically, but Madrid played the hard line instead of compromising. This lead to the independence referendum. Which resulted in the central government cracking down, and the prison sentences for political leaders from Catalonia.
I’ll admit to being torn about the situation (not that my opinion matters, not being Spanish). On one hand, I believe strongly against separation. On the other, when negotiations broke down, Madrid left Catalonian leaders little choice. Capitulation would just be an invitation to more mistreatment.
There are much smaller states in Europe that seem to be doing fine. Catalonian independence obviously wouldn’t destroy or ruin Spain. Humanity needs a better system for deciding who gets a state and who doesn’t other than mass violence and political prisons.
Separation - as friend said to me recently “Europe is a fragile experiment” You have a Authoritarian vulture waiting in the East. You have Steve Bannon (kicked out of Italy) now holding up in his new evil liar in Greece. You have the complete lying propaganda of Brexit. A direct hit. And finally corporations. Serves their complete interests a decentralized fragmented Europe. The prism how I look at this.
No-one’s denying that any separatist movement in the West – especially one that fragments the EU – makes Putin very happy. That’s one of the reasons for my general opposition to them. But that doesn’t change the fact that the corrupt and heavy-handed Spanish government in Madrid has only made the problem worse over the past decade.
You want Catalonia to stay in Spain? Elect a national government that will deliver on the earlier promise of a Catalonia with limited autonomy, recognition of its cultural nationhood, and return of a greater portion of the taxes it pays into the system.
Or keep making excuses for the current government’s bullying and cack-handed approach, which is inadvertently doing a lot of the heavy lifting for Putin.
And that’s very much why I prefer standing together instead of fracturing, both in Europe and North America.
But there is also only so much you can expect people to put up with before they push back. Madrid seems to have much more than half the blame for escalating the conflict.
No. I dis-agreed slightly “Madrid”. Yes probably a factor. but… that part of Spain. It’s a little small mindedness. It’s a little north/south latent racism. Moorish hangover. A bit of economic arrogance. And of course, feelings can be co-opted into oppression. But after separating. What’s next? Breathing your own air. Why
By “Madrid” I believe he means Rajoy and the ruling People’s Party, the current national government with its seat in the capital. That’s more than “probably” a factor in this mess.
i know what he means … “that part of Spain” meaning catalan region
What are your views on the behaviour of Rajoy and the People’s Party, both in regard to how they’ve handled the Catalonian autonomy process, the protesters, the Catalan separtist leadership, and also their own corruption scandals?
I’m willing to acknowledge an economic conflict between city and country that complicates limited autonomy in a way it might not in the Basque country, but it still seems that there was a reasonable modus vivendi in place re: autonomy and recognition of national status before Rajoy and his bunch of crooks started chipping away at it.
I think every western country waxes wanes deals… whatever with scandal corruption, ineptitude. But democratically it was good reading that paper how Spain is totally in line w/ European standards. I’m more interested in roots of this. Be ridiculous to think for instance, New York City wants to separate over a corruption scandal.
Catalonia has its own coastline, its own mountains, it’s on the French border.
Madrid considers separatism dangerous because it’s plausible and reasonable, not because it’s absurd.
Most Americans have never heard of Catalonia. The ones who have heard of it, all we about know is the Spanish Civil War, when the Catalonian rebels were the good guys. Turning it around and claiming that today’s Catalonian rebels are a bunch of racists is what sounds ridiculous.
On aside note, mountains, coasts , borders, used to live near there. Over the mountains in the Languedoc area
It strikes me that the PP’s corruption is at the root of this along with other factors, and that they’ve moved from scandal and corruption to meddling with the independent judiciary and imprisoning political opponents in order to cover up for themselves. That’s more than just a “whatever” to be hand-waved away.
As for NYC or California, there is always half-joking talk about separation for the same reason: prosperous regions that pay the lion’s share of taxes to support ungrateful bumpkins in the economic basket-case states and that have to live with a greedy and corrupt narcissistic clown as President* because those same backwards states have disprortionate sway in the Electoral College. That talk got a little more serious recently with the Putin-backed “Calexit” effort, but fortunately it didn’t last very long.
In either the case of Catalonia or California, the solution is not really full-fledged separation, but a more competent and less corrupt central government that will deal in good faith on questions of autonomy and economic fair dealing. In 2020, I’ll be voting for a Democrat – any Democrat – to weaken the GOP’s grip on power. Who will you be supporting to kick out Rajoy and the People’s Party in Spain’s next election? Who are you supporting in Spain to improve the situation and reach an agreement with Catalonia?
[corrected. Per @Barradeno, Rajoy is out]
In this case IMHO the case is that the idea of a society and the values that people want to promote are different in Spain and Catalonia.
The society in Catalonia wants to move forward and the Spanish state are holding them back.
Let me enumerate some examples so that you can have an idea.
The transition to democracy was planned to make a change only appearance, all power structures and key people of the fascist dictatorship were kept intact, for example the judges and the police. As an example to this day they police and military still keep the decorations (and pensions) obtained in operations against the the political dissidents of the dictatorship. The crimes of the fascist dictatorship have not ben tried nor the victims properly repaired.
To this day, the fascist dictator is still buried in state sponsored a mausoleum where fascist regularly go to pay homage. Only now, after 40 years, the government has plans to move it to a less prominent place. Half of the Spanish parties strongly oppose and defend the right to have the dictator buried in “El valle de los caidos” and allow fascists to pay homage to it.
There is a state sponsored foundation that promotes the figure of the fascist dictator and the values of fascism. (Hey, it’s unbelievable, I know, but I’m not making this stuff up!)
There are lots of people in Spain that do not support fascism or authoritarianism, but unfortunately a large part of the population is confortable with these situations and supports fascism ideals in at least some degree.
On the other hand Catalonia is strongly antifascist and republican.
I’m voting Sarah Palin - Yes… she’s on her way back. Joking, but eh, if this thread is still going 2moro… have to go… was good conversing w/ you’allll
Def read all this, have to go, hopefully threads open 2moro 
The thread is open for a few more days. Plenty more time for you to avoid answering uncomfortable questions!
