Slightly off-topic, but what kind of timetable would they be looking at, assuming no interference? If the UK crashes out, I don’t think it will be long before Scotland has a new referendum on separation, and rejoining the EU would be a central factor.
2 Likes
Interestingly, in the US, the constitution has nothing to say on the subject of secession. Up until the civil war, it was generally assumed that it was allowed, to the extent anyone thought about it. To my knowledge, the declaration of the civil war was never tested by the courts for legality or constitutionality. In fact, the obvious reading of the Constitution would be that secession is permitted, since the constitution doesn’t mention secession, but it does say that the federal government only has powers specifically granted to it in the Constitution, and that all other powers belong to the states and the people, ergo, secession is the state’s decision.
Despite the dubious precedent of the civil war, people in the US (notably California and Texas) do still regularly campaign for referenda on secession. They are not persecuted, and if they ever got enough signatures, they would get to hold their referendum. It’s not clear what would happen if they won, and tried to act on it, since the law on the subject is unclear, but, while the feds probably wouldn’t let independence happen, they would also not charge the people who held the referendum. (They didn’t charge the state congressmen who voted for secession in the civil war, because its not illegal to hold a vote on something)
Not sure what “elimination of human rights” has to do with this case, except for the government throwing the instigators in jail and violating their civil rights, but, in the US, in states where the state constitution allows referenda, you can have a referendum on anything, and it’s not illegal. If it passes, and people think the resulting law violates human rights as described in the Constitution, they can challenge the law in court, and if the court agrees that it violates constitutional rights, they can strike the law down.
5 Likes
There’s also the issue of Spain public debt, that is huge after decades of unchecked systemic corruption, a situation inherited from the dictatorship. There is the fear that without Catalonia, Spain will not be able to pay its huge debt, and will not be able to design a credible payment plan to reimburse its debtors either, and would default.
As part of the hypothetical negotiations the Catalonian government would agree to take its share of the Spanish public debt. But if the independence is reached without negotiation, if current attitude of the Spanish state persists, the Spanish state may not be economically viable nor able to upkeep.
4 Likes
I know this is an unsatisfying answer, but it all depends on the politics of the situation at the time.
After Brexit, the EU has no obligations to or solidarity with the UK rump state, and the messages coming from the EU have completely changed since the Brexit vote. Opinions are divided as ever, but the scare story from 2014 of immediate ejection from the EU then a long difficult procedure to re-join is on the “apocalyptic exaggeration” end of the scale.
Finally, an argument of “Oh no, don’t do that- You’ll be plunged into needless uncertainty about your membership of the EU”, deserves only a vague gesture at, well, everything in response.
Possibly because that’s kind of how the US came into existence. The irony of someone saying “You can’t just declare indepencdence from another country- that’s illegal” to a bunch of Americans isn’t lost on anyone, is it?
6 Likes
Even five years doesn’t sound too bad. It’ll take a few years for an independent Scotland to get things sorted domestically, anyhow. I guess it’s a matter of managing expectations.
3 Likes
“Nation State” is not synonymous with “state”. It is not synonymous with “nation.” It derives from the possibly erroneous belief that a state’s political boundaries should be drawn so as to include culturally, linguistically, and religiously homogenous units…
This is feudal Germany.
This is German Nationalism
The word itself is fairly new.
While nationalism could be associated with the liberation of peoples who suffered under imperialist yokes-- many heterogenous states also used nationalism as a means of legitimizing their authority-- the Paris dialect was not always spoken in the Occitan. The Jewish Question was originally phrased in the context of German Nationalism-- and the “answer” turned out to be a crime against humanity,
Feudalism came with its own set of absurdities.
all the parts in Red owed allegiance to the English King, and those in Green to the count of Paris. Of course, the area we know as France wasn’t ethnically or linguistically homogenous as it is today, so maybe…
1 Like
there are a lot of people living in catalunya who don’t want to separate from spain. Either because they or their (grand)parents are originally from another spanish region or because they have a lot of family in other parts of spain or various other reasons.
Making all those people happy will be very complicated. Catalunya already is a semi-autonomous region.
Now I do agree the spanish government is messing it up majorly atm so the number of catalunyans wanting to get out grows, but still it will be a major hassle to separate catalunya from spain. Also part of catalunya is in france and I the french part currently doesn’t really want to get out of france afaik.
In my humble opinion it would be better to make the differences between the european countries smaller and make europe more of a U.S.E. instead of balkanizing it even more, but what can you do, money talks. Catalunya (currently) is a rather prosperous part of spain and I suspect the main reason they want out is they don’t want to pay for the poorer parts. Just like in flandres and northern italy.
Of course that’s not the only reason, the underlying problems are more more part of a culture clash, but I think the money is a big part of it.
Now I am not spanish (or catalunyan), I just have some friends from Barcelona, so don’t take my opinions on all this too seriously because all my info is at best second-hand. My friends from barcelona are more or less split donw the middle on the subject, which leads to (ahem) ‘interesting’ discussions after the 4th beer 
2 Likes
If they’re both in the EU then it shouldn’t matter, it’s not like they’d need a visa to visit grandma
3 Likes
Depending on exactly what you mean by ‘country’; practically every bit of Europe big enough for a shabby hill fort and a local strongman has been a different country(usually quite few different countries) at one stage or another(typically a slightly confusing list of different ones at different times for different reasons).
All this is technically irrelevant to the question of how governance ought to be dished out today; but it’s probably not a great idea to appeal to Historical Nationhood, given that all that’s actually there is a mixture of baroque feudal nonsense and more recent file-to-fit once they invented the logistical underpinnings required for a nation state to point its army in a chosen direction without having most of it starve to death.
3 Likes
Yes - country - schmunchtry. The anthropologist might say everywhere was atomized culturally at one point. But then came the Horse, Boat, Car, Phone. A 30 day distance in the middle ages becomes 30 mins now. Meaning everything quickly merges. Religion. Languages. Customs. Accents. To a point where difference is… well you’d need to break out the microscope. So coz to Separate being local nationalism ? Well… don’t see it. I mean (as other ppl commented here) if we go back to principalities. We’ll quickly have The Tribal area’s of Europe. “You mean Afghanistan” No, Europe
There has been quite a bit of discussion over whether Scotland could be fast-tracked. The 5 year number I mentioned is based on them being allowed to jump the queue, and is the number given by Claude Juncker. Of course, Scotland can do some of the prep work before separation if they are willing to stay in the UK for a while after making their EU application, and a few people have argued that the Scots could force the EU to give immediate membership based on Brexit denying human rights to Scottish EU citizens. Since the UK would no longer be in the EU, the major barrier I mentioned – veto on the Council – would not be an issue, certainly all the member states would welcome them.
The requirements for admission (including unanimous acceptance) are clearly spelled out in the treaty.
In the US, a state can only legally secede if the other states agree; that isn’t in the written constitution, but was the result of a Supreme Court decision in 1869, Texas v. White. Some of the complaints levied about the Madrid/Catalonia relationship could have been made by California, which is currently under serious attack by the Trump administration (eg California laws being overturned by presidential executive order), but Calexit isn’t going to happen; beyond the legal issues, there’s quite a long border to deal with.
1 Like
Sometimes, people just don’t speak the same language.
I tried, but the submission system is broken… and has been for a long time (also, every time I’ve submitted anything related to Chile it never makes it to the blog). Please help by spreading the issue. The government is completely out of it’s mind and the police and military are like rabbid beasts on the streets. Some hours ago the subnormal president we have declared on air that “we are at war with a powerful enemy”… can you believe it? Just like Catalonians, it looks like Chileans are now enemies of their own state… but we can’t even claim independence from our own nation.
5 Likes
My understanding is that Spain would block Scotland’s membership application as a matter principle, as an independent Scotland entering the EU could shift public opinion in Catalunya and the Basque country further towards independence.
I was told this during the Rajoy years, it may have changed since.
4 Likes
…ergo, secession is the state’s decision….
In Spain, if the possibility of secession is contemplated (it is a more modern constitution than that of the United States) and there is a legal way to reach it.
The independence parties simply have not wanted to follow the legal path.
I do not know the constitution of the United States but surely the form of control of this secession is the definition of a sovereign subject, that is to say who decides that a part of the territory can be separated, surely the American people, thus preventing a part I can decide on the whole.
…hey can challenge the law in court, and if the court agrees that it violates constitutional rights, they can strike the law down…
I am certainly not aware of the exact legislation of your country, but I understand that if the central government legally prohibits the holding of a referendum because it is entitled to have in itself more votes than an administration of a lower grade. Carrying it out would be a crime.
Do not think that making a referendum is an innocent act, it is something full of political significance.
It would not be good for a referendum to suspend rights of a minority because that minority would be politically undervalued.
…they can challenge the law in court, and if the court agrees that it violates constitutional rights, they can strike the law down…
No civil rights of the accused have been violated.
then it will be judged in the Spanish constitutional court and then surely in the European one.
As Spaniards they have all their civil rights intact.
There are crimes that involve jail prior to trial in this case the judge determined that the courts could escape from Spain because one of them did.
Thanks for listening to me
as Spaniards we feel judged for asserting the same rights that all countries have while we see a campaign of general misinformation that makes a minority (independentist guided by two political parties) pass by “the Catalan people” who really do not even want Independence does not even exist because the mixture of peoples in Spain is as common as it is in the United States.
note
Catalan countries never ever existed as a country, they were always part of Spain or France, giving them independence would be like giving independence to manhattan, do you exist the manhattan people?
1 Like
Hi, find all this very interesting, should be working but… What do you consider the roots of this issue… when you have a chance
This justification for Spain blocking Scottish EU membership makes sense if we’re talking about Scotland wanting to leave an EU member UK, then return independently, as this would be a precedent for Catalonia. However, a Scotland that wants to leave a departing UK to stay in the EU is a different matter, it is no longer an analogous example.
4 Likes
4 Likes
Never in Spain has the Scottish case been thought to be similar or an example for Catalonia.
Scotland is a country within a union of countries (U.K) with its different rules, kings and stories.
Catalonia has never been a country, it has always belonged to Spain or France.
There is an invented story in which even Christopher Columbus is Catalan built by the independentists.
It is part of the independence misinformation to assimilate his case to the Scots to get his sympathy.
Rajoy was never against the entry of Scotland into the European Union, no Spanish president has been.
