Cecily Strong weighs in on the fauxminist epidemic

[anon35121463]

@japhroaig

as a community we are making all of us better people.

QF straight-fire-absolute-fucking T.

[GulliverFoyle]

[Edited for belligerent tone. I snipped out part of my reply because it initially seemed like you were comparing me to the Taliban.]

@glenblank

Well, yeah, but again, not everyone sees “I’m a feminist” as “tooting their own horn.”

I honestly didn’t even realize people might see it that way until I read this article.

And being wary of someone who proclaims (what you judge to be) a ‘virtuous’ position is a far, far cry from telling them “Fuck you, it ain’t up to you.”

I think you misunderstand. I’m not saying it’s virtuous because I think it is. I do think supporting the core definition of feminism is a virtue (albeit of the basic human decency variety that doesn’t merit a lot of praise for just being a decent person). But virtue signaling isn’t a personal thing. It’s cynical manipulation of a common value such as feminism in progressive circles. It works because it’s treated by a lot of people as a cause for kudos. And again, I don’t really think men deserve kudos for supporting gender egalitarianism. It’s something everyone should be doing.

So although my first comment might have been a little more salty than it needed to be, I do think men who choose every opportunity to tell women how progressive and feminist they are should be received with a modicum of skepticism within those communities. Because yes, it is seen as a progressive virtue and there’s a history and pattern of fauxminist men using it as a badge to gain privilege and influence, and a shield for decidedly sleazy behavior.

@glenblank

Now that I know that someone is liable to apply their own condemnatory judement for me saying “I’m a feminist”, I’ll probably say something more like “I support feminism” or “I support feminists” rather than “I’m a feminist” in the future. (Those all seem pretty much the same to me, but hey, when in Rome…)

Well, I won’t. I was offering someone who shared my own tendency not to make a big show about being feminist an alternative language of support. That I or they or anyone else choose to do so isn’t a limit on everyone. So no, not when in Rome, because my decision not to call myself a feminist isn’t a rule or custom for others to follow.

There are three things I’ve been discussing.

1. The brandishing of feminist credentials as virtue signaling and exercise of male privilege, which is a real problem but not what everyone who calls themselves a feminist is doing (see my discussion with @navarro for the importance of context).

2. My personal decision as a matter of clear communication not to label myself feminist.

3. The decision, for a variety of their own reasons they’ve described, of some men who do consider themselves feminists not to make a big deal out of it.

These three things may seem alike, but they shouldn’t be conflated.

@glenblank

To be clear, why people engage in virtue-signalling is not mysterious to me.

What puzzles me is why people think it’s the primary purpose of politics and voting.

Ah, I misunderstood you on that then. That’s on me. That said, part of the reason I misunderstood is because I didn’t realize people did consider it the primary purpose of politics and voting. Virtue signaling exists in all arenas of social interaction, and has since at least the dawn of civilization, but it’s certainly not the sole purpose nor the sole reason people display actual virtue.

@glenblank

(The ones who really set my teeth on edge are the ones who proclaim that they’re ‘idealists’, as though that were some sort of virtue. Now, that’s one that makes me immediately wary.)

You’ve encountered this a lot? I rarely meet people who will call themselves idealists. It seems to almost be a dirty word this day and age in Western society. I personally think some idealism is fine provided it’s balanced with pragmatism, priorities and context.

[Auld_Lang_Syne]

You mean you didn’t already? I could have sworn … I don’t have the link handy, but you did create that thread.

[popobawa4u]

@glenblank

When someone shakes my hand and says “I’m very pleased to meet you”, they may be expressing genuine pleasure, or they may be just muttering standard social pleasantries, or they may be lying through their teeth (because they really despise me), but they need or want something from me so they’re ‘buttering me up.’

I solve this by asking lots of annoying questions. People who don’t think beyond the rote protocol aspect shut down after one or two questions. Such as “In what way does it please you?” One going off-script sorts them out rather easily.

@glenblank

And when people refuse to do what they can to stop a fascist because they’re too ideologically pure to vote strategically, it enrages me.

Sure, but this risks guessing one’s own strategies to be more universal than they actually are. It seems a bit pompous to go the extra step to concluding that those whose votes I disagree with are “wrong”. To know what strategies might be effective for others, I’d need to at least be informed of their goals, values, and lots of subjective and circumstantial factors which I am not privy to. Self-righteous rage makes for a poor substitute.

[Archon]

@LearnedCoward

*I have next to no native social skills of my own, but I am an engineer.

This is why I love Gary Numan:

“All that we are
Is all that we need to be
All that we know
Is you and machinery
We’re engineers.”

[LearnedCoward]

Gary Numan was another one of our kind. He knew whereof he spoke.

[Archon]

That he is, and that he does.

[Kimmo]

@LearnedCoward

I won’t claim to be a feminist because I have no dog in this fight.

I dunno about that… If there was a label for being against capital punishment (humanist?), I’d have no problem wearing it, despite not being on death row.

I figure I have dogs in every fight, because I feel diminished by every example of humans being complete fuckwads like that. And I know that our collective potential is constrained by every act of oppression.

So every time I see one group of people standing over another, then yeah - I have an underdog in that fight.

[hotel]

Devo was never as good after Nietzsche left the band though.

[LearnedCoward]

I see what you’re saying. I support feminism, but don’t want to speak for all women if women can do that themselves. When I see outspoken male feminists, they’re oftentimes too willing to speak and not willing enough to listen. I don’t want to fall into that trap.