Children don’t always live

You are arguing that “So should we just line all the non-breeding adults (like myself) up against a wall and shoot them? Can we just go ahead and assume that they certainly have no social worth, and that their lives must certainly be only misery?” based on the initial premise of “That is straight up posing the question “Is life meaningful absent children.””

I am telling you that nobody is saying that non-breeding adults do not have social worth and that life is meaningful absent children, but that the author of the piece feels that the loss of their children would make them lose their connection to the world.

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And I am disagreeing with you. It’s OK to disagree.

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No it ain’t. It’s straight up posing the question, “Is life meaningful after having lost children.” People who have never had children will not have to worry about their children dying, will they? The idea is that becoming a parent alters your mindset, arguably permanently. Doesn’t make you any better, smarter, wiser, or more or less opinionated than non-parents.

My brother will die a childless man. He may regret not having children (he claims he does not, and I believe him), but he will never have the feeling of trying to continue to find meaning in life after the death of his children. Our mother did have that feeling, and always said that if it weren’t for the rest of us kids and grandkids and great-grandkids, she would have had absolutely nothing to live for after either of those sons had died.

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Give it up, DP. I spent too much time saying the same thing.

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That doesn’t follow. What is hopelessness if not the absence of hope? You need sentient beings to have hope. Get rid of all those beings, and you’ve effectively extinguished hope. And you’re left with hopelessness.

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I will when it stops being mildly diverting. Probably soon.

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Best of luck, I’ve been told that we’ll have to agree to disagree. [rolleyes]

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It’s not a thought structure, it’s a fucking connection to your child and to nature itself so deep that you would literally die for them. Don’t take my word for it, read the comments above from those who are parents themselves.

Your comment is the imposed thought structure.

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Good look coexisting with folks.

I don’t believe I was talking with you. And it’s okay for you to disagree.

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Or you would abuse them, psychologically, sexually, physically, perhaps you would even be the one to cause the loss of a child. Having a child does not magically imbue your existence with meaning universally shared among parents. Nor does it necessarily remove the meanings of your life pre-parenting: a la career, hobbies, friendships and other (non-parenting) relationships in your life.

Oh man, heavy topic. I don’t think i can bring myself to read the linked article about losing a child. I don’t have any kids myself, but the pain and loss there is something i have a small glimpse into but cannot fathom.

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Don’t be ashamed. There’s no way I’m clicking on the link either.

Earlier this week I saw a story aggregated on Google News about a toddler who died in a house fire, it’s dog, curled up by its side, dying too. The fucking headline made me cry. No click on that one either.

Some links shouldn’t be clicked, unless you’re really desensitized and jaded.

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The psychological data are unambiguous: if you’re a human, it is much more painful to loose something than to never have it.

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Looking over your posts again, I can’t help but notice a few things. References to crippling shame, angst, and boredom, existential nihilism, a seeming belief that you’d be better off if you were never born (a belief that I disagree with). These are all classic symptoms of clinical depression. I know, not because I’m any sort of mental health expert (I’m not), but because I’ve been there.

I recommend reading the following two comics:


… And contacting a family doctor to give you a referral to some sort of mental health professional for an evaluation.

It can get better. It took me years and a lot of help, but it can get better, if you talk to the right people.

You know that people love you, which is a good first step. Those people want to see you happy. If you think you might be depressed, get help. The road back from depression is too long and hard to walk alone.

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Creating harm is bad. However, not creating pleasure is not bad. For example, if I breed a cat and then torture it mercilessly before killing it, I have done something cruel. Alternately, if instead of creating a cat and feeding it ice cream and rubbing its chin every day, I do not create the cat at all - I haven’t done anything wrong; I haven’t harmed anyone. This is an asymmetry of sorts. So, if the choice is to create a cat that has percent X of living a life of torture and percent 1 - X of living a life of ice cream, no matter what X is (as long as it is nonzero) it will be wrong to create the cat. If X is zero, at best it is a wash. Creating the cat can never be a benefit to the cat.

And I am not sure how one even “weighs” out the “net” benefit vs harm of life experience. How many sunsets does one need to see before burning to death becomes worth avoiding the non-harm of not existing?

As to the question, “what is the meaning of life” - I consider that about as intelligible a question as “what is the meaning of wind”. My recognition of the nonsensical nature of the idea behind a meaning or purpose to life doesn’t mean much of anything, I think.

As to your idea that by creating a new person you leave them the choice whether to exist or not, that is nonsensical on its face. Further, what you are really arguing is that if a person doesn’t want to live they can just put a shotgun in their mouth and blow their skull caps off (and hopefully die). But obviously if they get to that point, you have already harmed them. And of course suicide is usually harmful in and of itself.

Evolution by natural selection has imbued us with an almost impossibly strong instinctual belief in the desirability of life. Which makes sense. So I recognize that there are very good reasons that people might be resistant to what otherwise seems the clear logic of antinatalism.

Contemplating the end of all human life also naturally repels me and makes me sad. But I believe that with enough intellectual fortitude one can look past one’s own sadness to see that really my own sadness at the idea is not justification for causing others to suffer.

Anyways, the quality of my argumentation is starting to falter I think, as I frankly grow exasperated from the effort. I know in matters this important I should have more fortitude. But I do reject the idea that the proper way to look at it is net pleasure vs pain, so to speak. The links I have previously provided I think address that issue more fully and coherently.

A few years ago, a twelve year old down the street from me died after 3 days in ICU with 3rd degree burns over 90% of her body. In your world, things like that happen again and again, forever. In my world, they never happen again. The cost of my world? Only my own confused sadness about the prospect. I feel no more sorry for the people who would have otherwise been created but then wouldn’t be than I feel sorry for the sons and daughters I could have created so far but haven’t.

I don’t think anyone said that. The question is…how do you carry on after losing a child. Not … how do you carry on if you never had any children.

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Assuming I am depressed (or really that I could be), that’s only one more reason why it was bad to create me. :slight_smile:

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Condolences from my heart, I’ve never lost anyone young personally, meaning my family.

I have spent a lot of time in my youth at children’s hospitals, Alder Hey and Murtle Street.

My sister had a spinal problem and spent many years in and out these wonderful places of extreme sadness and joy, I’d get a bit bored of visiting my sister and go roaming around the wards making friends and pushing children around the ward in wheelchairs at silly speeds until caught by the nurses and checked on my behaviour. (They didn’t mind that my legs worked).

I made many friends over the years and have never gotten over visiting an empty bed, asking where the person I had visited a few days ago was and at an early age realising that we all die, but not that soon FFS Without even experiencing your promised three scores and ten, puberty, falling in and out of love, getting drunk the first time, dicking about on a motorbike etc.

A friends son Joshua was born with a brain tumour and I don’t know why but every summer when in his teens he’d have his head shaved, even though the close-cropped hair style suited him he’d still have it done anyway showing all the scars, yep I’d just melt!

My sister is fine BTW. Still, has a titanium rod in her spine and I’m glad she’s still with us cos she’s a clever lady and works in the medical profession despite the challenges she has had to overcome to get where she is today.

Can’t type anymore!

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Removing the existential quantifier doesn’t solve this ‘problem’, it only eliminates it. Two very different things (ask any engineer; they seem to understand this better than anyone).

Also: you might enjoy (no sarcasm, I think you’ll find it interesting) Peter Wessel Zapffe’s essay The Last Messiah, which expands on some of the thoughts you’ve shared in this thread.

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