Chrissie Hynde Endorses ISIS View of Womenās Rights
Iām kind of mind-boggled over thisā¦I canāt believe that someone of her age and experience and level of recognition could be so sadly damaged as to believe itās her fault that someone else decided to take advantage of her. Especially since I recently absolved myself of as much guilt as possible over things that happened to me. I meanā¦it seems that if it I can do it, anyone should be able to do it.
Itās a depressing thought that the so-called liberation movements - the hippies, the yippies, the punks and so on have this in common with ISIS, that they facilitated the exploitation of women. Which is what attracted young men to themā¦the creepiest experience I ever had in the 1970s was a visit to a small commune in Notting Hill which turned out to consist of a manipulative psychopath, a couple of easily led young men and their harem. It put me off hippiedom for life.
I feel bad for her in way carrying all that weight for all these years. It is a common coping mechanism of rape victims to blame themselves, people hate feeling helpless and this gives them some small amount of control in the situation.
What is horrible about it is she should really seek professional counseling and not be preaching to others in a similar situation. It is never the victims fault.
Iām often struck by how many peopleā¦completely internalized the inevitability of male violence against women and see women as responsible for it.
This. Regardless of the culture or subculture, the idea that men have an inherent, uncontrollable tendency to rape and women have only the power to encourage or resist that tendency is a way of thinking that absolves men of any responsibility for their actions and only reinforces the view that women are at best subservient, at worst provocateurs.
@kupfernigk; I donāt think Godwining out with the ISIS comparison is helpful. First, itās not apt; the hippie, yippie, punk and other subcultures were not built around an oppressive ideology, though they might have been exploited by some at the fringes. Second, it only results in a comparison of ānot usā - we canāt honestly compare the rape culture in fraternities to ISIS and doing so allows fraternities an excuse not to admit and address the problems they do have.
Yes! Therapy works! Iād rather see someone endorse that than the victim-mentality.
This view of women has been around longer than ISIS, and itās not entirely rooted in any one movement of any sort.
Unfortunately, Iāve got to work so this reply wonāt be the most cogent, well-edited reply butā¦:
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In Western culture, boys are punished more often and more severely by their parents than girls are. (citations needed, of course)
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One of the milestones of growing up (if I may say so, of becoming a man) is the start of taking responsibility for your actions. This is en-cultured via sports, via peer pressure, and society in general.
2a) Of course, if youāre a member of the 0.1%, you never need to take responsibility for your actionsā¦you get papal dispensation because money.
2b) The 0.1% are āa bunch of mindless jerks whoāll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.ā -
If I guy walks into a bar, talks loudly, tough, and provocatively and then gets beaten up for it, heāll tend to blame himself for being an idiot.
Soā¦getting back to Chrissie Hyndeā¦(dashes off to workā¦)
Apart from your incorrect use of āGodwinā, I was pretty specific about my comparison rather than make a broad brush comment.
In Western society we attempt to demonise people who do not buy into our view of civilisation by āotheringā them. A lot of the media attention given to ISIS has focussed on their (abominable) treatment of women, but every time we try to look objectively at the problem of abuse of women in our society, people come up to defend it. (We also tolerate the abuse of women in Saudi Arabia because, well, they buy shedloads of arms from us and a few other reasons.)
The hippie movement was full of casual sexism, from referring to women as āchicksā to the abuse of underage girls. We need to be fixing the sexism in our own society before we use its existence in other societies to differentiate us from them.
From a sociological (and anthropological) perspective we can identify the same roots of behaviour - a desire for power over other, weaker people; desire to belong to an in-group which has power and influence; and retaining the loyalty of members of the group by getting them to engage in transgressive behaviour which will allow influence to be brought to bear later on.
In the case of the Greeks or the Bullingdon in the UK, at some future date a member may be brought into line by internal blackmail (you wouldnāt want those pictures released, would you?). In the case of ISIS, involvement in atrocities means that group members must stick together because individually they may be picked off and killed for what they did. But the underlying control mechanism is similar and the difference is one of degree.
In Catch-22 Joseph Heller describes ex-frat boys committing murder of women in wartime Italy after engaging in rape while at university.It would seem this behaviour pattern has a long history.
I really wonder if this is true. In my experience, it tends to be older siblings, regardless of gender, that are punished more often and more severely. Younger siblings tend to get away with more. Though girls also tend (in general when I was a teenager, though perhaps less so nowadays) to be given more strict rules in terms of curfews, etc, regardless of where they fall in the order of children born.
An otherwise strong intelligent woman who, for decades has been an inspiration to millions reveals that she was raped. Along side this revelation, she speaks her truth, however depressing and wrong-minded it is (and it is).
What does she get?
Thousands of āfansā hurling abuse at her on social media, doing anything they can to make her wish sheād never spoke of it in the first place.
The words were bad, but equally disgusting is the reaction to them. Instead of compassion, many āprogressiveā people have decided to shit on a great woman and her otherwise beautiful legacy.
And I thought conservatives were narrow-minded and mean! It just goes to show you that people would sooner verbally abuse a confused rape victim than to attempt to understand how she came to such an awful conclusion, and engage in a conversation.
No one wants to hear anything that they disagree with. People claim to be open-minded and compassionate, but once another speaks a contrary thought that doesnāt plug in to common belief, an angry mob is formed and they are immediately berated and shamed for voicing the thought to begin with.
Discourse, empathy? These things are dying in the United States of Twitter. This woman needs help, not abuse.
Shit on her? Thatās not what Iām hearing, which is instead this: dismayed disagreement. Methinks you doth project too much.
Did they ever exist? Itās there to make smart-Alec comments. For constructive help, thereās real life.
She has my sympathy, not that she knows or cares, and that of many other people. The comments of a few thousand idiots are not enough evidence to write āNo one wants to hear anythingā¦ā, and they are hardly an angry mob; I doubt many of them are capable of getting up to do more than go to the refrigerator or relieve themselves. Iām a lot less worried about people in general than you seem to be.
N=1, but FWIW, this was reported to me by a couple of female teens, who were just as dismayed and horrified as the adults. They do know better, nowā¦at least, the ones who have been raised to know better.
Agreed with and hearted, but I must add that not all are strong enough, or whatever, to endure therapy. Walls and defenses and oneās own coping strategies and so on can be too much to move beyond.
It is unfortunate that(in part due to lack of precise vocabulary, in part due to imprecise thinking that presumably led to that vocabulary problem) we seem to be really, really bad at distinguishing risk assessment from blame allocation, especially when the āriskā is another human or humans rather than hot stoves, tectonic faults, and similar natural phenomena.
As a matter of risk assessment, of course we can identify circumstances that are more and less strongly associated with rape risk. (They probably arenāt the ever-popular stranger danger model; but it is pretty much an epidemiological question). Unfortunately, if you even think about doing that, people jump immediately to the idea that those in high risk circumstances ādeserveā their outcomes; without regard for the fact that the risk of rape is zero if there arenāt any rapists present(and also disregarding the fact that even in the case of much more deterministic organisms, like pathogens, we rarely say that kids who drink contaminated water ādeserveā cholera).
Left or Right, never meeting in the eye but angry to be bumping to each other in the dark.
Iām curious as to where youāre getting your information about punk? Iāve been involved in different northern european punk scenes for over 15 years and the reality seems very different. Many people in the global underground punk scene are actively anti sexist, anti patriarchal, radical feminists who are trying to create safe spaces for vulnerable people. To suggest that they have something in common with ISIS is bizarre.
The authorās claim that theyāre āoften struck by how many people involved in the [hippie and] punk subcultures have completely internalized the inevitability of male violence against women and see women as responsible for itā is also a bit weird.
While I disagree with your contention that this is some weird āprogressives attacking somebody simply for speaking her mindā (as if she was bringing up an opinion on tax reform, or something)ā¦ Generally people get upset when you tell rape victims that itās theyāre fault they were raped. Being a rape victim yourself will earn you some compassion (as this thread clearly shows), but itās not going to negate the harm that your words have done, and for some people it actually makes it WORSE that sheās a rape victim herself, and saying these types of things.
