Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its
foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that
the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination
to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.
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Yes, thank you for this. I used to drive by this all the time and think, âWTH?â But then again, Iâm a Yankee.
That statueâs got some crazy-eyes going on there.
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How about calling it the treason flag.
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I think itâs not the south as a location, but The South as a culture.
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Unless a âworthless yankeeâ is aiming a gun at your head 24/7/365.25, then thereâs no force keeping you in your current yankee infested hell hole. Youâre free and encouraged to leave.
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Iâm not sure how the content of the Cornernstone speech fails to illustrate my claim that Slavery was an emotional wedge issue between Northern and Southern culture or that the issue of wealth aquisition and transfer (particularly with regard to the change in control of which region controled the Federal Govât) was a more powerful but much less visible current driving events.
Iâd no more expect a politican like Stephens to come out in a big stemwinder speech and say that the big monied interests are upset at no longer controlling the Federal purse strings than Iâd expect John McCain to say that it was vitally important for us to have comprehensive immigration reform because a lot of his big donors in labor-intensive industries want to continue to exploit cheap third-world labor while simultaneously having their products âmade in the USAâ.
Perhaps I gave readers too much credit for being able to differentiate between what a politician does and what he says and the use of wedge issues to drive support and turnout vs. what they talk about in the cloakroom. They DO make a constitution where it is very difficult to raise tariffs on exporters. They SAY âthose Yankees want to rile up the Darkies and then arm them to rebel and kill your family as you sleep.â Stephens doesnât specifically hit that note in this speech but post John-Brownâs raid it was not an uncommon theme. This speech is interesting for a lot of reasons, but one is that you can see both the Do and Say in a few short paragraphs right next to each other.
Conessiours of Confederate Speechifying may like reading Toombsâs speach here as well:
http://civilwarcauses.org/toombs.htm
It is not as brief and to the point as the Cornerstone speech is but it does have the advantage of explaining that one of the causes that drove the South to leave the Union was that the Northern states had demanded an elf.
Also Stephens gave a postwar âwalkbackâ on his cornerstone speech:
http://www.adena.com/adena/usa/cw/cw223.htm
Not a chance. The total number people held in slavery was increasing, the percentage of population that were held as slaves was increasing in the south and slave wealth represented the majority of total wealth in the south. The southern elite was not going to let it die without a flight.
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[quote=âclosetbox, post:39, topic:6504â]
I do think that there is one thing we can agree upon, flying the Confederate flag is controversial[/quote]
I think this is an important point. Whatever the Confederate flag may have meant at the time of the Civil War itâs become a symbol of racism, and has been used as one for decades. When Martin Luther King Jr. was shot white American soldiers in Vietnam raised Confederate flags at Da Nang as a way of âcelebratingâ.
(Source: Flashback Through The Heart by Angela M. Salas)
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Yeah, the thing is riddled with bullet holes.
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Sure, but those could as easily be left by appalled art aficionados as anybody else. That monstrosity is hideous; frankly Iâd be willing to shoot at it regardless of who it portrayed.
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Perhaps if you donât want us to take what the politicians say as evidence, you should quote evidence beyond what the politicians say plus your word not to trust it, because as pointed out there was a lot of wealth and interest tied up in slaves to. I assumed you meant that as your support, because why else would you have linked it?
At any rate, the opium wars may have been part of broader mercantilist interest, but the British were still defending drug sellers. Regardless of the importance of tariffs and slavery in triggering the sad war, which again I will admit to not knowing in detail, there is more than enough there to show the claim the Confederacy wasnât about white supremacy is a completely hollow one.
And yes, as SpunkyTWS says, there is no question its flag is recognized as a symbol of such today. People can say theyâd like it to be about southern pride, but out of all the things that exist down there, how is that the one they picked to represent themselves?
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Well, thatâs certainly justifiable, given the blatantly treasonous actions of Democratic Senators David Rice Atchison and David Brooks, as well as Democratic President Buchanan (whose predecessor, the doughfaced Franklin Pierce, was not much better).
But loser flag conveys a different sentiment than treason flag, because treason is respectable under some circumstances (such as, for example, when you win⌠just ask George Washington about that one).
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Not a chance. The total number people held in slavery was increasing,
the percentage of population that were held as slaves was increasing
in the south and slave wealth represented the majority of total wealth
in the south. The southern elite was not going to let it die without a
flight.
I didnât mean to imply it would have happened quickly, just eventually. It took South Africa a while to end Apartheid, but eventually there was enough social and political pressure that it came to pass.
Iâm still stumped by this whole affair, because practically everyone who was involved is dead already.
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Wow, thatâs really pathetic.
One of the things I like about commenting on BoingBoing is the other commenters see themselves as so progressive, intelligent, generally accepting of other people, and willing to understand viewpoints that conflict with their own.
I did mean that the cornerstone speech supports my view that the Civil War wasnât a simple âFight to End Slaveryâ. I also thought it would be an interesting read for people who have only read the âbabies are brought by the storkâ version of history. I didnât mean it as something that would be impossible to cherry-pick for evidence to support the âslavery is the be-all end all of the War of Secessionâ. Nor was I expecting to be accused of claiming that Slavery had nothing to do with the war right after I mentioned that it was an important (and especially an emotional) issue in the cultural divide at the time.
If you want more detailed treatment of the monetary drivers behind the war Iâd recommend you start with âFor Good and Evilâ, if you donât mind reading a book on the history of taxation, though sadly it isnât available free on the interwebs.
My understanding is that the so-called âStars and Barsâ is used by those wanting a non-political symbol of Southern pride specifically because it is NOT a political flag, but a Confederate Battle Flag. Whereas the various Confederate national flags (including the real Stars and Bars) would have the suggestion that the flyer supported the political aims of the Confederacy including slavery. The fact that SOME people ârecognizeâ (believe) that it is a hate symbol no more means that no one can fly it than that Christians should stop displaying crosses because the Klan also uses them or because some other groups might claim it reminds them of the Crusades, harsh treatment of Native Americans, the Inquisition, etc.
Well then youâre in the right place, because I have no trouble at all understanding your viewpoint. None whatsoever.
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You should really watch that BBC doc Petrol Bombs and Peace
as it illustrates the same principles of hatred and oppression. That struggle is ~900yrs old and
shows no signs of being resolved any time soon. Iâve visited Belfast and itâs a wonderful place but certainly divided. The divisions seem to rest in teaching bigotry to youths as well as shit stirring marching bands insisting on marching through catholic areas. Iâd love to see the KKK or any similar organization try to get away with marching in Black areas where I live. It would not end well.
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I got that part. As I said, I donât expect the motivations of the north to be wholly noble, but that doesnât reflect positively on the south and what it stood for.
I got that part too. This conversation has other participants, and the one I was replying to was offering a southern perspective where their support for slavery was all but a moot point. I am sorry for engaging you by claiming it was the whole point, so I will just say it was obviously a very important one if slavery was used as a rallying call in their foundation.
As to the idea that the battle flag of a would-be country that announced its cornerstone was white supremacy isnât a symbol of that, and so using does not indicate approval of it, I have no idea what to say. Thatâs not comparable to saying the cross doesnât represent the crusades, which are hardly the foundation of Christianity, itâs like saying the rising sun flag doesnât endorse imperial Japan.
This flag is a symbol made by admitted white supremacists for admitted white supremacists. Its use today reflects at the very least indifference to white supremacy. Why are people so adamant in defending it, instead of finding another symbol that can represent a south with both white and black people in it? Because I know my guess isnât a flattering one.
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