No one is calling for a “deplatforming” of Rogan (much as I would love to see it.) These are artists who are unwilling to allow their art to be associated with a FUD-peddling grifter. That makes perfect sense to me, I would not want to have that either. That is absolutely not censorship, it is guarding your brand at worst, a moral decision at best. Any corporation would recognize the strategy.
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Okay. A lot there, I didn’t realize that was going to start a firestorm. I was kind of going for the opposite.
Mindysan, well put and fair. Apparently it is very debatable. How about the way the ACLU puts it?
“Censorship, the suppression of words, images, or ideas that are “offensive,” happens whenever some people succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others. Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. Censorship by the government is unconstitutional.”
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I totally agree. I was going a little OT and commenting on the larger conversation of what role Spotify here specifically or the monopoly providers generally ought to be playing.
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Antivax misinformation is not “offensive.” It’s deadly and dangerous. It’s killing thousands of people a day. So it still doesn’t fall under that definition.
It’s more like leaking the names and faces of spies or undercover DEA agents actively placed in a drug cartel. It’s just information, right? But it’s as deadly as pulling the trigger yourself.
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How about "What is not censorship? If you choose to spew ignorant garbage in a public space, it is absolutely with my rights to leave, and take my artwork with me. There is no requirement for anyone to remain in a space they feel is unworthy of their work. Quite a few artists have chosen to leave on the “if you are OK with him, I am not staying.” This is absolutely not censorship. You have the right to say what you please, there is no right to have others stand by you while you do so. (Just to be clear, “you” in this case is rhetorical, and not a personal attack.)
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So is climate misinformation, transphobia, and racism, which that creep Rogan regularly traffics in.
But hey, the right of white cisgendered straight men to spew whatever bullshit that they want is paramount when it’s making lots of people wealthy. not like the rest of us deserve the same rights, anyway. /bitter s
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Again, I agree. I really picked the wrong thread to bring this up in. I have no quarrel with artists choosing not to share a platform with that nutbag.
I am more conflicted about the idea that we should be expecting Spotify to ultimately be the arbiter here.
It literally isn’t censorship by definition.
Censorship is government restraint of publishing.
Choosing what you want on your site or in your newspaper is what publishers do every second of every day. It’s their freedom of speech.
Choosing who you wish to be associated with in a publication is freedom of association- protected in the constitution.
Choosing who you wish to buy based upon your perception of the quality or harm caused by a product is again - a fundamental right.
Your argument is specious.
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These same people have now moved on to book burning…
Maybe before you start defending someone who does not give two shits about you or about the free speech or treating this as an intellectual exercise that we can safely discuss, maybe look around you and see what is happening in this country right now, at how many people are dying, because people like Rogan decided that they know better than people who dedicate their lives to public health and they use their privileged position to promote lies that are LITERALLY KILLING PEOPLE… this is not some fucking HS debate club. It’s REAL LIFE, and these things are having REAL CONSEQUENCES on REAL PEOPLE…
This is not a game. I don’t want to “win” an internet argument - but somehow, I still end up being the asshole in these conversations. I want us all to come together and ensure that the most nuclear armed power in the world does not become an authoritarian state. We don’t need a world run by oligarchs, which is precisely what we’ll get if this country falls apart and becomes a one party state.
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I disagree that censorship is limited to government.
Also, I think that whether Spotify is functioning as a publisher, like a newspaper, or a delivery mechanism, like the USPS, is an important distinction in this conversation. I don’t have a clear opinion on that yet, personally.
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You have succeeded in expressing your level of clarity.
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You are never the asshole in these conversations. I’ve been around here for a while and I respect your opinions and your convictions.
Clearly this is a really emotional one for everyone and I made a bad call when I decided to start thinking out loud to figure out my own mind.
Please everyone stop yelling at me lol. I’m almost certainly 99% on the same side of this you are.
Just ETA, I seem to have somehow fallen into the truly annoying habit of using “clearly” far too often. I’ll do my best to curb that behavior in the future.
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Asking folks to “calm down” is a form of tone policing - this matters to people, they are going to debate these topics vigorously.
This is a public forum, opinions are posted here to be challenged, and you may find yourself in the uncomfortable position of realizing your position is not shared by other mutants. The solution isn’t to ask them to stop challenging you, but instead to reflect on why your opinions aren’t shared by your peers here (i.e., try to understand their position).
when real people are being affected by racism and bigotry, there tends to be pushback against those who would choose thought exercises over reflecting on the reality of what’s happening in the real world. While I’m not suggesting that’s what you are doing here, remember that there are members of our community with literal skin in the game, here.
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People who decide they want no part of a platform b/c that platform allows spewing of the above mentioned and other horrid BS is not censorship. That said…
I disagree with all bigots. Hating people b/c of their color, religion, sexuality, gender, etc is bullshit. Bigotry needs and deserves no platform of any kind. I hope that’s understandable.
I disagree with vaxholes, maskholes, and their evil ilk. People who are causing deaths with disinformation during a PANDEMIC need and deserve no platform of any kind. I hope that makes sense.
I disagree with people who deny the massive amounts of overwhelming scientific proof that we are in the midst of a climate crisis, a crisis which is destroying crops, homes, wildlife, livestock, and human lives. People who spread disinformation about the climate crisis need and deserve no platform of any kind. I hope that’s comprehensible.
I very much dislike the color red. It makes me think of blood and pain, and it clashes with my strawberry hair. People who love red have every right to any platform they choose. I do hope that’s clear.
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[A bit late to this, so forgive any repetition of other responses]
First: there are well-understood remedies to gatekeeping by the platforms/content publishers if you’re actually worried about that: anti-trust regulation; copyright reform; interoperability standards; open source software (esp. decentralised and federated solutions); consumer privacy laws; etc.
Guess which ideology makes any of those things so difficult to conceptualise for many, let alone implement (hint:starts with an “N”)
Second: what’s being discussed re: Rogan are not just disagreements of personal opinion or abstract ideology. These are opinions and stances that disagree --often dangerously and violently – with scientific reality (e.g. anti-vaxx) and basic human decency (e.g. fascism). These opinions have real-world consequences, especially if you’re not a person of privilege in our society.
Guess which ideology has decided to cynically ally itself with those peddling those positions (hint: see the first answer above).
Perhaps now you see the real thing to be concerned about.
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Spotify paid Rogan a reported $100 million for exclusive rights to his podcast. He is the streaming service’s biggest star, its calling card, its billboard name. Rogan is Spotify
If you pay $100m to a blowhard talk jock, you are damned well responsible for what you put out from him.
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Yeah, since making the post you replied to I think I have fully formed an opinion on that and I agree. Definitely publisher not delivery mechanism.
Yeah, seriously. I haven’t exactly seen a dearth of bigots afraid to speak their minds. Although I guess since so many of them are spending so much time talking about being cancelled, maybe it’s just hard to tell?
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