The problem is that (for example) when one of the various Kims is diligently starving his people to death, “people to people” type programs just solidify his position.
And yes, we could have taken in more Jews in the '30’s, but the death camps still would not have stopped until the allied armies showed up at the gates.
My point was not that all people to people programs worked, but that those types of programs had a better track record and brings about a stronger sense of respect for the US than do CIA coups and bombing campaigns… I do think you can do good work by engaging people and treating them with respect.
And yes, that would not have stopped the Holocaust. I really wasn’t suggesting that. It just would have saved more people. Would it have helped if we had gone to war against Germany when they invaded Poland with the French and British - who knows. But I do know that there would be at least some people alive (or their children and grandchildren at least) who were not if we had taken in more people.
Part of the problem is that we have a history of rooting for the underdogs. So we construct a (David vs Goliath) narrative about which side are the good guys, and which are the bad. Sometimes, that narrative is accurate. But often, there are two or more groups with a long history of enmity, and the favored “underdog” is just the one currently losing. We support them, then as soon as they have the opportunity, they become the oppressors. Our interference ends up primarily having the effect of prolonging the conflict. I have been in the middle of a few such conflicts, and it is just horrible, knowing that our well-intentioned gesture will absolutely lead to a net increase in suffering and death.
Idealists cling to the idea that democracy is end all be all and espouse this to the wide world. But look at what happened in Gaza. They voted in Hamas and the US and Israel had a fit. Democracy at work. I’m just glad the Egyptian military deposed those democratically elected terrorists.
The Afghan “triumph” was meant in jest. That victory over the Soviets trained up too many terrorists. The Taliban are still after all rural, religious oriented people with their own needs. I also don’t understand the US stance on Turkey. They were founded with a secular government but now the rural religious fanatics have their man Erdogan in office. He’s obviously corrupt and his goons go and rough up democratic protesters here in the US. Yes, yes, I hear you, Obama and the Demos can do no wrong.
I think you’re missing my whole point. The US needs to stop stirring the pot. The Left clings to the hope that if you stir one direction, then only good things can happen while the Right thinks the opposite. All that meddling has consequences. Far better had those ME dictators been left to do what they’re best at. But it’s funny that the Saudis are our BFFs. Guess they’re too rich to oppose even though they’re the worst exporters of terrorist philosophy.
Engagement in the ME is not mutually respectful. You are not of their religion and they don’t respect you.
The wars against Germany were not about saving anything but the British from and upcoming European power.
"That’s very Prime Directive a way of thinking. But that doesn’t work unless you can also guarantee that Country B will never be a threat to Country A.
More importantly IMHO, there needs to be a force that works against tyranny and for human rights in the world. That’s generally very difficult to do without the threat of arms as a backup."
That’s a very high handed way of thinking. You do what we want because we know best.
If you give people human rights only for them to turn around and become terrorists then I’d argue that it would have been better to let the languish under a dictator.
No, we really don’t. We have a history of rooting for people who pretend to be underdogs. That’s how we got Trump as president. The real underdogs in American history - African Americans, Native Americans, women, LBGQT people… they were never until very recently celebrated and given any sort of grudgding respect. We like stories that make us feel like we aren’t a class ridden, racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, homophobic… whatever-phobic society.
I think that tells me all I need to know about your mindset.
I’ll be sure to tell some rando on the internet that my Muslim friends don’t respect me. I’m sure they’ll get a hearty laugh at your expense.
Absolutely correct, and when we first constructed that narrative in 1916-17 it set the world on a path of fuckupedness from which it has never recovered.
Not to put the responsibility for this picture on you, but I think that such a worldview leads to the following, with which my right wing friends had a good deal of understandable fun:
As my dad used to say, if you come across a rattlesnake blocking your path, you have to either kill it, or walk around it and leave it alone. It won’t pay any attention to your polite requests.
If the rest of the world saw us the way you do, there would be no one running for president on the platform of building a wall, because black and brown people, Jews and Muslims, women and gays, would want to emigrate to anywhere but the USA.
Yes, you’re not going to be able to engage everyone. But you won’t know that until you actually try to engage first thing. if you just assume that the other group, country, or person is a “bad actor” and can’t be persuaded, then you’ve already decided that you want that person dead, at all costs.
War should always, ALWAYS be the last possible option. Because it’s horrific and it diminishes us all. Nothing good comes out of it, except sometimes some people are freer and the people causing the problem are now gone. But it also means that a lot of people are dead and people are traumatized.
You’re starting to make a lot of assumptions about how I see the world and this country. But all those things are indeed true. It’s also a big, wonderful country, full of wonderful people and things. Both are entirely true and accurate views of America.
Lots of people DO see us this way, because they aren’t blind - many are coming from worse situations. They come anyway, because the country is big enough and large enough to carve out spaces of real individual freedom (we’ll see if that holds in Trump’s America).
I quite agree.
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