Really? No specific world view? Not even “my lack of romantic success is someone else’s fault? Also, life is unfair to me and it’s the normies’ fault?”
Because that seems pretty foundational in my understanding of what it means to consider oneself incel. Like, I’m sure a lot of people have less romantic/sexual success than they’d like, but “incel” seems like something a lot more specific
[Since the thread has been pruned I’ll repost with edits reflecting the discussion]
I define an incel as one whose attitude inherently threatens women, yes. Incels believe they are entitled to sex with a woman or women of their choosing and hate women who won’t give them what they want. That’s an inherently threatening attitude, one shared by perpetrators of especially heinous criminal offenses.
And the culture as a whole does worship murderers. They may not all openly cheer him on, but no-one in that culture is disavowing these killers.
I’m making it about effectiveness – “worthy” not in terms of morality but in terms of “worth the time and effort”. Misogynists (which incels are by definition) hate women and blame them for their own failures and shortcomings and disappointments in the basic and visceral arenas of romance and sex. Racists hate PoC and blame them for their own failures and shortcomings and disappointments in the basic and visceral arenas of money and power.
Now after a lot of hemming and hawing on your part about how the two types of delusional hatred are different and that consequently sympathy would work with misogynists but not racists (without explaining why) you finally allowed that:
So let’s move on from there. Some argue that sympathy will work with racists. I disagree, and further think that it’s about as effective a general strategy as trying sympathy with incels (which is to say, not very).
I think the first step is to brand indulging in various organised forms of misogyny (e.g. incel) or racism (e.g. white supremacy) as unacceptable and shameful and ridiculous in our society while simultaneously acknowledging there are other, non-delusional reasons for the person’s dissatisfaction.
And I’ll add back my response to: “I do think love and greed are different emotions, and I think dealing with one thus requires a different strategy than dealing with the other.”
But incels are very much consumed by greed: they believe they have the God-given right to control the disenfranchised (women) for their own purposes. It has nothing to do with love.
Edited to add: another theme that has been pulled from this thread has been the repeated reference to incels as being “disenfranchised”, and thus worthy of sympathy for their plight, when in fact it’s their victims – women – who are truly disenfranchised.
It’s worth mentioning that there is a great deal of overlap between Incel/MGTOW/MRA groups and white supremecist groups. In many cases you might be “sympathizing” with a racist misogynist.
Seriously though; the repeated attempts to marginalize the actual problem being discussed and to shift victimization to the very group that is problematic is fucking galling.
Lots of people have sad, unfilling lives and poor self esteem; but if anyone uses that as an excuse to antagonize others, that’s not worthy of any ‘sympathy.’
There’s also a strong strain of capital-L Libertarianism and Objectivism in the misogynist blogosphere mix, too. Not surprising given their tendency to reduce everything to an economic transaction.
Overlap or not, the SPLC considers these male supremacist groups to be gateways to the alt-right:
Real talk, that goes back to what I said earlier.
Many of the self identified ‘incels’ are only sexually interested in a very specific archetype of female, automatically disregarding any woman who isn’t slim, White and young… so in those cases, the issue isn’t actual loneliness or low self esteem - it’s a dude deciding that only a Maxim model (or some other equivalent ideal) is worthy of his peen, and then becoming angry when said model fails to appear instantaneously and fuck him on command.
My oh my times sure do change. I learned the term “involuntarily celibate” back in the day from women I hung out with, and it meant much closer to what it says on the tin. (Though it still had the same stink of BS- that it isn’t that one couldn’t get laid, it’s that no one who might be interested meets one’s criteria)
Add virginal and submissive to that list. There was a comment in one of these threads last week maybe asking why incels didn’t just see sex workers and be done with it.
The answer is that sex workers have had too many partners to meet their ideals. Here’s just one example:
Maybe some of you saw this floating around the internets in the last few weeks:
It’s not about loneliness and alienation. It is about a naked agednda of male domination and misogyny.
Well, aside from the valid point you just made, another reason is that sex workers require monetary payment for their services, whereas the very basis of incel/MRA/PUA culture is that men are “automatically owed” sex from the ideal female of their choosing.
So being expected to pay for sex is “beneath them,” a direct “insult” to their ever-so-fragile manhood.
I’m willing to accept that they need help - and that women need safety while they get that help.
Chemical castration is a therapeutic treatment often used in people with sexually derived violent tendencies.
What I find funny about that rant is that his analogizing basically disproves his own point- no, you are not entitled to job in the field in which you have a degree, any more than you are entitled to a mate taylor fitted for you.
I would say it sort of is, only in the sense that it is far prior to when the problem presents itself- by the time one is blossomed into full adulthood I’d say it’s a different problem. The people who are into this didn’t just spring up overnight, they are the totality of years of experiences. Want to stop this? Make sure that your teenage kid (boy or girl) isn’t emotionally torturing the dorky unattractive kid to get status points in front of all their friends who get a good mean laugh out of it. That’s where this shit starts, and it buries people in holes. Once it snowballs, it looks like a million miles and oceans to cross to get to normal. This is why advice like "it’s so easy and simple, just… is totally not helpful, even when it’s correct. If “normal” were possible to grok* for them, they would have taken that path in a heartbeat no questions asked. I think they end up at this sad point because normal doesn’t appear on their radar from the vantage point of the hole they are in.
*I’m using this word in the sense of internalized understanding; Someone can hear someone else all day long giving them advice, but that doesn’t mean they will necessarily be able to do any better than a mere guessing approximation of what’s happening under the hood.
So am I, but the onus isn’t on women to fix their problems for them.
Fuckin’ A.
*snickerz evilly
It would provide them with a space which would allow them to participate in therapy without their intrusive violent ideation. To hopefully grow and be able to later return and engage in more healthy social interactions.
It’s certainly preferable to having a woman subject to violence or coerced sex - and them spending decades of incarceration.
Those feelings (which everyone has felt, although some certainly more than others) can harden into myriad forms of hatred and bitterness. The fact that only some people react to them this way demonstrates that it’s not a universal cause and effect situation.
As a general rule, empathy and kindness go a long way in any social setting.
But you know, many adults don’t even have that sort of self-awareness and compassion. I’m not convinced that teenagers alone are responsible. Life is hard. People cope with feelings in millions of ways. If someone chooses to blame someone else for their feelings they are going to have to admit it to themselves before they can be helped.
If you or someone else have the emotional energy and time to try to talk incels out of their horrible beliefs and self pity, have at it, and good luck.
As a woman, I have absolutely no interest in that endeavor.
Is that Poe’s law in action? I honestly can’t tell.
I wish, but these all came from incel forums. Here is one from Incels.Me that was archived before being modded.
I’m only going to leave the link here instead of quoting- it includes misogyny, calls for killing sorority girls and acid attacks, including a couple of pictures of women who have sustained them.
I … thanks, but I am not going to click on that. I need some kittens and puppies. Stat.
Ari Shaffir ‘You gotta go super dark…I mean bring it back at the end, but dark’ achievement unlocked!
[My Unworthy Self, (yeah, MUSes…) but with thanks!] [Ponders C|Net Book Club (podcast) ep.001 of 5ish suggestible of David Bohm / On Dialogue]
