Empath vs Sociopath - classic battles

This. Racism and bigot are loaded words. But in the context of this conversation we just mean “bias”.

And babies are well known to prefer people of their own “race” it’s simply a survival tactic.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/10770563/Babies-show-racial-bias-study-finds.html this isn’t to say that every white baby is a white nationalist just that they show a preference to white faces.

I think denying this sort of bias can be dangerous. And as we have all grown up in a racist and sexist society that is going to have an effect on us consciously and unconsciously. If we want to move past our baby-instincts we have to acknowledge them.

Honestly I think we all agree and this is just a semantic debate, my do we love those here don’t we? :wink:

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Interesting and thanks.
I scored 55.
I was pretty sure I was going to score lower. Perhaps I can be cranky and still be empathetic.

Not a single question on the test re: personal grooming. Fashion, yes, but not bathing. Hmm.

I foresee an email landing in each of my family’s inboxes from me, begging them to take the Empathy Quotient Test. I have my suspicions.

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It may be helpful to get a real diagnosis from a qualified doctor or mental health professional before you go wading into the deep end of self-diagnosis. Such a qualified person is likely to have connections to resources and a solid list of next steps for you as well.

Is there a social worker in the area you live in who you would be willing to talk to, by phone perhaps, to see what resources may be available to you, if you don’t have gold-plated health insurance that will pay for you talking to An Expert? In the US, social workers are typically assigned by county (not city or state) government.

You may be more comfortable dealing with a group instead of one-on-one. This looks promising:

https://www.autismspeaks.org/community-and-support-network/support-groups

You are the same person you were before the test as after the test. Nothing’s wrong. You’re still breathing. If you are not neurotypical, you’ve got a lot of company these days. It was probably ever thus inside humanity’s vast genome; we’ve only now started putting names to stuff that didn’t have names or labels before.

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ETA: I liked the plaque better than the t-shirt.

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You make some solid points, but I stand by my mine.

Please elaborate on this, as it pertains to the perception of race currently?

I could see the advantages at the beginning of human development, before there were complex forms of communication.

But now, in the 21st century; how does it ‘benefit’ us?

I agree with you technically, but I think it depends on whether one takes a prescriptivist or descriptivist approach to use of language. I’d prefer to keep a clear difference between the meanings of “racist” and “bigot”, but I wonder if that ship has sailed, since race and racism are now so out in the public dialogue. It seems like a lot of people understand the word “racist” to mean “bigot”, so I suspect it will continue that way. I used to lean more toward prescriptivism, now lean more toward descriptivism (at least in the area of definitions of words).

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Excellent point; I’m probably ‘tilting at windmills’ with this one.

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Not to say that the distinction in reality isn’t an important one! Mostly to say that if I can understand from context how someone I’m talking with is using the word, I’m usually okay with letting it go at the time.

But I think that exploring the differences between personal and institutional bias is definitely important.

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Agreed.

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It doesn’t have to; it’s just in our basic programming and we have to install patches manually.

I think there are a number of cognitive systems that approximate optimal systems for our purposes, but it’s worth looking at what they actually do so we can address the times they’re going to let us down as a species. If empathy is something developed to give us feelings of attachment to people close to us but not those outside the group, this is a major bug that we should know about.

Other people have different issues; like many autistic people, I tend towards a very black and white way of thinking and can be pretty naive/romantic about other people’s motivations. Fortunately nobody’s badly abused that trust yet and many people find the fairly typical straightforwardness attractive, but other people aren’t as lucky. Romanticism can also turn into cynicism if it’s challenged too much, so I try to live in places that encourage a more co-operative approach to life.

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I was not aware.
Yes, that does affect how you’re going to perceive any given circumstance. (My brother is on the high functioning end of the spectrum, so I understand all too well.)

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It’s worth noting that the test measures how empathetic you think you are, not how much empathy for others you actually have, objectively.

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This is true, and part of the problem with certain psychological issues is their inconsistency. My answers were generally based on the statement “I sometimes have problems in this area” rather than “I always have problems in this area”. Depending on the context and how I was feeling, I could have had a very different score. (I was actually surprised I got such a low score, as most of my answers were not on either extreme).

Another thing to point out is that emotions (your own and others) can be confusing for people on the autistic spectrum; it’s not that autistic people feel nothing, but it could be difficult to identify or differentiate between different emotions, or what they mean in a certain context. It’s actually odd in general how different people characterise the experience of autism - is it that they have very little emotion, or too much? Hardly any empathy, or an overabundance of it? I know in my case that it often seems that there’s too much information, and if I reacted to everything it would paralyse me. Crowded rooms are difficult, because I can hear many conversations and am influenced by many different people and things in the room. If there are several people in the conversation, this can make it even more difficult. It certainly isn’t that I’m unaffected by people around me.

(If you like personality tests you can take the one for Alexithymia here. I got 130).

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The test for your feelings on ancient greek clock work mechanisms?

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Do not taunt antikythera mechanism!

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The pathology sometimes lies whether you believe it is a problem for you or not. Though possibly you may not know that it is a problem for you or not, or problematically whether someone may decide or try to convince you that it is a problem if you don’t see it so.

Woo!

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Μην χλευασμός Καλή διασκέδαση των Αντικυθήρων

Do not taunt happy fun Antikythera

in Greek

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I got 90. I scored worse on interpersonal relationships, which doesn’t surprise me. I am very conscious of my issues there, and apply empathy more these days than I have in the past.

After seeing a therapist for awhile now, the answer that test is missing is, “is it equibatle”.

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I think talking about things is really important, whatever level you are on the scale. I’ve seen plenty of couples split up when they don’t have these issues, and it’s not because one of them is a bad person either. Sometimes people overestimate their ability to read the other person and they make too many assumptions.

While I’m not denying that they exist, one of the things I find odd is how many people online are willing to diagnose their ex partners as narcissistic and sociopathic. This seems to be the case in the US more than elsewhere. There’s also often a tendency to frame breakups in terms of an abuser and victim rather than differences of life goals, breakdown in communication, unfulfilled expectations or some other incompatibility. It’s more than an armchair diagnosis, it almost becomes a grand narrative. Certain people are programmed to be opposed to equal relationships and they will try to destroy you.

As I’ve said, I tend to be quite trusting of people on the whole. I’m not that way with systems. I think people have the ability to show a lot of co-operation, but then you get places like South Sudan where soldiers were partially paid by offering them women to rape, or places where it’s assumed that beating your wife or treating her as completely unimportant is normal. I think many aspects of modern western society show sociopathic tendencies too. Money is way too important, success is often seen as a zero sum game, there is insufficient willingness to see our neighbour’s needs as valid or something that we should concern ourselves about. Inequality and job and financial insecurity are not good for a society’s cohesion. It’s not surprising given this game that some will play to win, and the winners will not be nice people.

In relationships, I think there are a number of things that support this kind of zero sum game too. Gender roles and overly prescriptive relationship models can restrict us, and our working lives can interfere with the ability to give enough time to partners and families and there are advantages to deceiving partners rather than cooperating with them. Men are expected to work excessive hours as a matter of course, and women are expected to take on too much of the responsibilities at home (as well as working). There is often insufficient support from outside. Unlike other places, breakups can end up with the woman taking the kids and the man taking the bill. Then the “typically narcissistic” man doesn’t pay the bill. What a jerk.

Here’s the thing though: I have already promised my wife that if we ever do split up and she gets 100% custody without a good reason, I will do the same thing. It is irrelevant whether I am the main childcarer or the main breadwinner in my consideration. I will probably become bitter for some time, but I won’t stalk her or anything like that - my family just won’t see me again. The thing is, my work (whether for money or directly for the family) is an act of love. I’m willing to do it because I care about my family, even if I’m not present with them at the time. It could be that when I come home from a job with a lot of social interaction, the last thing I want to do is talk with my family and spend time with them. It could be that my family doesn’t recognise this as an act of love because they express love in different ways, but that doesn’t change that fact. If we split up and I’m expected to put in the same amount of work (or more, because I’d need to pay for my own apartment etc., I will react in a similar way to a newly divorced wife who was asked to do her responsibility and come around a few times a week to cook, clean and have sex with her ex-husband. It makes a lot of difference why you’re doing something. In this scenario, the state and my wife have acted in a sociopathic way toward me, and I will cut them off (probably by moving country). This is not a threat, just a heads up.

(This is something I’ve only been able to articulate recently, and I’m not guaranteeing that my opinion won’t change. It’s good to have opinions down in writing so you can acknowledge them, critically evaluate them, and discard or change them if necessary).

So given this fact, it’s important to establish a relationship on a more equal footing. Firstly, I refuse to go to an office and work full time. This would be a very stupid move for me in this game, but it also means that I don’t have the energy to spend time with the family when I get back. My wife has to work and earn a similar salary to me, if she is able to, while I have to do at least as much work in the house and with the kids. We need to live in a country and at a level that allows us to have reasonable working hours without starving. If we do split up, there has to be willingness to start from an assumption of 50% custody and allowance for either partner to make adjustments to allow that (since most relationships involve some division of responsibilities). While courts look at the best interests of the child, I don’t always trust their judgement and I will take my own interests into account if it comes to a separation. With this in mind, she can leave me whenever she wants to.

(Our marriage is not on the rocks, I just have no filter and we discuss a lot of stuff together. Generally this has actually been much better for our relationship than other times when we didn’t as much).

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