Four dead in garlic festival mass shooting

Police overreach, racist implementations, and violation of privacy and the 4th amendment are legitimate concerns with the Ring stuff, as well as stop-and-frisk. Crypto backdoors fundamentally make everyone less safe by definition, thereby completely invalidating the entire point of the idea.

It’s interesting that you lump border walls in with this list of rights-violating policies, though. After all, border walls aren’t designed to protect the rights of anyone actually in this country (no matter what the politicians say); they exist to harm the civil and human rights of others attempting to enter this country. Border walls manifestly make everyone’s lives worse, while also being completely useless because ladders exist in this universe. I’m reasonably certain the only “wall” that even approaches a 100% effectiveness is the Korean DMZ, and that’s because it’s armed to the teeth on both sides and full of landmines.

Meanwhile, not being allowed to have a gun doesn’t affect your privacy, it doesn’t affect your vulnerability to police overreach (if anything, gun proliferation is a big reason why police are allowed to shoot first and ask questions never; they just assume everyone is about to shoot them first… also good luck winning an argument with a police officer by brandishing a firearm at them), and plenty of studies have shown that owning a gun makes you less safe. Like I said, I’m 2.7 times less likely to be murdered in my own home because I don’t have a gun there.

The reason everyone here thinks you’re more interested in your dick-replacing toys than kids getting murdered is because you’ve utterly failed to do anything to substantiate why you think your right to those toys is important to begin with. There are plenty of things we do in a free society that can be dangerous, including freedom of speech and (ostensibly) the right to security from government intrusion in one’s effects, because we understand that their value outweighs their potential abuse. What unique fundamental value does owning a gun bring to society that outweighs its overwhelming potential for lethal abuse?

If the primary purpose of the second amendment was to ensure that the nation could call up its citizens for self defense in wartime, and that purpose has been proven ineffective as well as been completely invalidated by the development of a standing army of frankly ludicrous dimensions, then what are the remaining justifications? If you want to fall back on “personal freedom”, I’m gonna need you to explain specifically what freedoms the right to own a gun grants you that are impossible to attain or secure in any other fashion. If you want to argue “self defense”, why do guns specifically need to be called out as a protected class of tools when there are myriad ways to defend one’s self when you’re under attack which don’t increase your chances of being killed by them – if you’re worried about getting mugged, perhaps you should take up aikido instead.

If you’re just worried about having collector’s pieces taken away from you in some overzealous reclamation process, perhaps a means of permanently rendering a collector’s piece unusable would be a reasonable alternative to confiscation. Pour molten lead into the barrel and weld it to the rim once it’s cooled to prevent it from ever being fired again, say.

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Er I believe the numbers show per capita gun deaths have been on a downward trend while the numbers have gone up because the population is going up, with suicides rising while homicides lower, though there has been an uptick in homicides. We will have to wait a few years to see how those numbers change, and see if we are on an upward trend or just a spike.

That is true, and they certainly get more attention. But why is this happening? The tools have been around a long time. Before 1968 one could literally have an AR15 delivered to their front door in the mail. So access has been more restricted over the years. What has changed is something with the zeitgeist where more people are now thinking this is the thing to do for what ever reason. The problem is I don’t see any real way to stop them, other than I guess a total ban. That would limit access, I’ve conceded that.

I irked a member above due to my “normal” murder comment. And in hindsight, I can see that coming off as callous, but I don’t mean to be. That wasn’t supposed to be “my” view, but society’s. When crime is concentrated mostly on the poor urban areas, the middle to upper class suburban areas don’t really care. It is when there is the shock mass shootings in their neighborhood that suddenly something must be done. There is mostly crickets from these people before that.

And that sentence there sums up what I am up against. Are you or I or anyone really living in “terror of violence”? This isn’t to say there isn’t violence, nor that we should just ignore it or it isn’t important. But objectively, does one live in terror from day to day and is that a rational fear or not? I mean my ex-gf literally lived in a neighborhood where a murder within a mile from her house would happen every other week in the summer. This isn’t an exaggeration, yet she said she didn’t really stress about it. I never considered myself in danger anytime I went to visit. Yet this was one of the worst areas on the KC metro area. If anyone should have that feeling, it should have been her and her family. And I am sure some people did live in more daily fear. But do most of us?

But this is the problem I see I am up against. Unless one uses firearms for something, they have a very distorted view of firearms use. The news and the media show/mention guns only two times: When they are used for violence or when they are getting ready to be used for violence. I literally can think of only one deleted scene in a movie where it showed guns being used for recreation not war or crime. So is it fair to say that the average person’s PERCEPTION of gun use is skewed by the media and news? What did the 80 million gun owners who hurt NO ONE do with their firearms today that didn’t make the news or become a statistic.

All these people calling for better border security, they aren’t all just bigots. They are doing it out of fear and constant exposure to news stories of illegals committing crime. If every day they see stories and share them on social media it is no wonder they think that the border is full of MS-13 or drug dealers and murders escaping to the north. Hell, terrorists COULD just cross over. Now you and I know that this fear isn’t completely rational. That yes, there is crime done by illegals, but not in any more significant numbers than regular Americans. Magically preventing any new immigrants would lower the crime numbers, because less people = less crime. But I think you and I both agree that their fears are largely highly skewed by their PERCEPTION of the amount of violence and that the chance of a “bad” person getting in doesn’t outweigh the fact that the vast majority seeking either work or refugee status are just regular, normal people not looking to hurt anyone.

That is because instead of putting what I see as a band-aid on the issue, I am going down to the cause of the infection. I could list some things that I would view as livable, but they wouldn’t actually help the situation IMO. And any action severe enough to actually make a statistical difference probably goes too far in my eyes. So why try to appease people with ineffective measures? That would make me a hypocrite, because I am saying most of the suggestions would be largely ineffective.

And another great summary of the issue. See I understand this view, I just don’t fully agree with it. I will even concede your point that these other things have more common, legal usage. I actually agree with you that the “good” and “usefulness” of things outweighs the bad things some people do with them. And people can actually relate to those things. “Hey, I bank on line, I guess I do use crypto technology.”

I just think the same thing about firearms. I can’t even get an acknowledgement that, “Yeah, ~80 million gun owners didn’t hurt anyone today.” Still if we are going to talk about usefulness or “need”, consider some people do find firearms useful or a need. I mean, I don’t NEED a lot of things others find they use in their daily lives. I wouldn’t profess to say their needs are invalid.

Many if not most 2nd Amendment supports beat what I call “the defense drum”. I don’t do it that often because 1) i find it tiresome, 2) it’s even more alienating and foreign to some people. But if one has to be convinced that whether ownership should be allowed based on a need or usefulness, then I will point out I’d like a firearm for self defense because if I am out with my kid or at home and something happens, I’d like a chance of not being the victim.

“Oh, silly, you don’t NEED a gun for defense. You’re statistically very unlikely to use it for that purpose.”

“Ok, if I am not likely to need it, then what is the harm of me owning it anyway?”

“Because there is violence being committed by them everyday.”

“OH ok, well in that case, I’d like a gun in case there is violence.”

Again, I don’t typically beat the defense drum, but it is a valid point and evidently none of the more common uses are seen as “necessary”, I guess.

Finally, it isn’t like I don’t “get” the other side. I can totally see if one cares zero fucks about it, they find them a completely superfluous object that could be put into the bottom of the sea. I mean, i feel that way about motorcycles. They are completely unnecessary in every way and add unneeded danger to people’s lives. I’ve known more people to die or get injured in motorcycles than firearms. But I wouldn’t begin to suggest we should ban them.

But yeah, I get that if people have no use for them, then why have them? I am just hoping to at least get a squinty eyed “I get your points, even if I don’t agree with them.” And that would mean not being having the argument twisted into “I just dont care about kids being murdered.” I try very hard to be respectful of peoples’ views and not twist them up (I know I fail, so correct me if I do.)

Thanks and take care. I really have to be productive today.

It can be stolen. It can be used against you in the unlikely event that you need to use it against an attacker. It can become a short-circuit to de-escalating a conflict. You could become yet another Perfectly Responsible Gun Owner™ who ends up losing their temper and shooting someone in the head over a trivial problem.

You still haven’t answered my question. Why does your access to a firearm require largely-unregulated constitutional protection? What purpose does that serve in a functional society? People in other countries seem to get by just fine without actually feeding the paranoid delusion that they’ll need to Dirty Harry a scumbag trying to steal their wallet.

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One of the reasons why law enforcement has become so dangerous to the local population is because they ASSUME everyone is carrying a gun and thus respond irrationally as if their lives were on the line at every single moment. The escalation causes more escalation, ad infinitum.

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That shows a pretty big lack of imagination in my opinion. Switzerland has a fuckton of guns and a fuckton of regulations governing who can have them, what kinds civilians can own and how they can be used.

It mostly seems to be American gun hobbyists who keep pushing the narrative that our options are limited to all or nothing.

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Ooh, ooh, I remember this one from years ago! The lack of mass-shootings there despite all those automatic weapons in homes is due not to Switzerland’s regulations but rather its “cultural homogeniety”. [that one still gives me a laugh for its combination of ignorance, bigotry, and flailing desperation]

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https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/421306-cdc-report-us-gun-deaths-reach-highest-level-in-nearly-40-years

Meanwhile, vehicle fatalities continue to decrease despite the same factors you are using to justify the increase in firearm fatalities, namely increase in population and number of vehicles. The two trend lines crossed in recent year - remarkable because far more people use cars than guns and the number of use hours is vastly higher for cars.

That is some pretty selective blindness, right there. Simply flipping the equation from a default “right” to a privilege earned through training and certification (as implied if not outright stated in the 2A) would keep many of the mass shooters from having easy access to firearms.

One of the fundamental quandaries of freedom is the intersection of one person’s liberty with another’s. It’s a problem that has been debated since at least ancient Athens. I do think it’s safe to say that where one person’s rights negatively impact another’s, the first person’s rights need to be examined and possibly limited. When the right to own or carry an object is in direct conflict with another’s right to keep living, it is safe to say that the second person’s right supersedes the first’s.

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I absolutely agree. The media is doing a terrible job of followthrough on pointing out that there is nearly one mass-shooting per day in the USA.

I just moved to Texas from Ontario, Canada. I can tell you unequivocally that not only did the Canadian government warn me that the odds of being involved in violent crime went up substantially as part of my move, but in fact a great many of my Texan coworkers have informed me that my usual Canadian habits of not locking my doors, my partner going for late night walks, and our habit of “talking through” minor issues with strangers should all be heavily discouraged, because you never know if the person you are interacting with may have a firearm.

So yes, they are.

Would it not be fair to say that the overall murder rate is down, however the number of murders commited with firearms as a percentage of all murders has increased significantly? Is this not also true of suicides, and mass-murders?

See, I get your mindset, I really, really do. “I, an everyone I know, are responsible gun owners. We enjoy our hobby, we are harming no one, in fact, we are educating those we know in responsible gun use. Why do we have to change?”

The answer really is “because public good”. I can make the same argument about wearing a seatbelt. Why should I have to? I’m a track-trained driver with a well-maintained car and way-too-expensive tires and suspension components. I have literally been trained in extreme situational awareness and proper reactions while driving. I am much less likely to get into an accident than the average driver. So why should I have to wear a seatbelt, and even moreso, why should I be fined for not doing so?

The answer in both cases is the same. Because it’s not about me. If I get into an accident, the additional load on the healthcare system dealing with my mangled self, as well as the trauma on first-responders dealing with a much worse accident scenario are measurable, real consequences from my “choice”. Also, those who choose to not wear seatbelts who are not well trained and responsible compound those social costs.

So the responsible drivers are fined for not wearing seatbelts, and the responsible gun owners bear the effects of gun restrictions. We do this because we choose to live in this society, and this society chooses “the common good” over personal comfort or recreation.

This is a straw-man argument. Above, you suggest that gun violence could be reduced by focusing on other factors instead of guns, but gun violence can also be reduced by removing guns from the equation, and increasing the ability of law enforcement to take action on those with guns in the first place to ensure there is not a supply of weapons to be had in the vast majority of situations. We know this because there are many other places other than the USA were the top concern when being involved in a crime (or considering the possibilty of one) isn’t “But they might have a gun”.

Yes, it will be grossly unfair to those that did nothing wrong. Yes, enforcement will be unfair. But society has spoken, loudly, and I seriously do not believe inertia will suddenly shift towards the positive aspects of gun ownership anytime soon. It’s far more likely that the opposite will happen.

You are not going to convince society at large that weapons are a necessary part of civil society outside of law enforcement. And of course, you are not going to be convinced that your legal, safely-practiced hobby is a threat to anyone. But that’s not going to change the eventual outcome.

Instead, I’d strongly recommend that energy be directed at how responsible gun-owners could find a way to enjoy their hobbies in light of the fact that gun ownership is going to, eventually, be heavily restricted or even removed from the public. Because if no one takes to step to do that, then the “public good” is going to do that for you, and I sincerely doubt that responsible gun owners are going to like their choices more than the ones those owners could have proposed themselves instead.

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Yes.

"Unless one uses firearms for something, they have a very distorted view of firearms use. "

Or they’ve been victimized by guns, you know, sorry there aren’t enough of us to satisfy you… keep up the good fight and one day surely there will be! Progress! /s
But seriously, how many of us does it take for someone like you to give a shit?

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Yup. Schools now do active shooter drills more often than fire or tornado drills.

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Ab-fucking-lutely, YES.

Both my 14 year old child and I can automatically tell the difference between the sound of mere fireworks and the sound of actual pistols being fired, because we’ve heard gunfire so much over the years… and we don’t even live in a stereotypically “bad” inner-city neighborhood.

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Sometime between 2013 and 2015 I was a Greek festival in Seattle not long after yet another mass shooting. As I sat in the food court I could see we were fish in a barrel for anyone with rage and a gun. The thought that someone was going to walk in and spray us with bullets grew until i had a minor panic attack and had to leave. Since then I don’t go to any city event with crowds. I avoid theaters, malls, churches, schools, sporting events, concerts and anything else that feels like it might be easy pickings for an asshole with a gun.

So yes. I do feel the effects of prolonged fear of violence. And I actively avoid going to events that I would really like to attend. But now, that just feels like flirting with suicide to go to any event.

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One of those things is illegal, and it isn’t the guns :confused:

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Kudos on you, for noting the bitter fucking irony.

Another relevant anecdote:
I was 12 years old the first time that someone I knew personally got shot and killed.

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This.

I’ve personally know 4 people who have been murdered, the first time it happened I was 8. At least 3 of these was a gun murder, I never got the full details on the fourth.

And I’ve got two family members, mother and brother, with multiple failed suicide attempts. They thankfully have never lived with weapons.

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Stuff like this is surreal, and frightening, to see. I mean, we have our share of violence (especially domestic, unfortunately) here in Finland, but here the archetypal homicide is still “two heavily drunken alcoholics have an argument, and one stabs the other to death with a kitchen knife / hits him with a hatchet”. People getting shot at random pretty much never happens, and someone knowing four people who were murdered (unless they were all killed at the same time in a single crime)… that’s not a thing.

So yeah. My sympathies to you both, and to all the rest of Americans in this thread. You live in a scary country.

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Indubitably, we do.

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There’s been a lot of research to the effect that children growing up in neighborhoods where gun violence is common suffer the same kind of long-term mental and physiological heath problems as soldiers living with PTSD.

One big difference is that soldiers eventually get to leave the battlefield and usually have opportunities for treatment. The kids don’t.

So yes, a LOT of Americans live in daily terror of gun violence. This isn’t even a particularly controversial statement.

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Unfortunately 4 separate incidents.

One drive by, one domestic, one home invasion, and one multiple murder but I only knew one of the people killed. The multiple murder was basically a targeted home invasion because of some kind of dispute.

Actually that’s 5 people I knew because I think my friend’s partner was also killed in the home invasion. That’s the one where I don’t know all the details but it also may have had a hate crime element. There was “graffiti” left in the home, according to the report.

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Yes. We’re pushing bulletproof backpacks for primary school children and there’s discussion as to whether they are to be required.

We’ve been discussing wills and healthcare directives because if you can get murdered at a damn garlic festival, what’s stopping this from happening at the beach? The mall? The grocery store? Anywhere?

Absofuckinglutely nothing.

And either we become a nation of shut-ins, or we have to accept that our number could be up at any moment, anywhere, just because we were trying to have a normal life, and someone decided that they would use their “rights” to express their frustration, fear and anger with the world by killing as many people as they can.

You want to talk about terrorism? That is terrorism.

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