It is a bad analogy I will concede that, and I apologize, so let me just stick to ‘liberal’, it still doesn’t make that statement any more palatable. Rejecting an education because it has a system (liberalism) you aren’t going to participate in sounds more like a recruitment for Bob(?) Jones University than anything else. The greek system does have its issues, and some of the anecdotes are egregious, but so do many campus groups, the pharmacy student clubs (if you could call them that) were well known for being pill poppers for example. But even then, considering the strength of the school pharmacy program had it was easy enough to avoid that behaviour. I guess the point I was after was that snap judgements about any group are just about worthless, and yes, that includes the greeks. The studies for this sort of thing (sexual assault in the greek system) are such a mash that they are just about worthless, (And before anyone starts, bring your stats, not your opinions) and mostly anecdotal.
Actually it’s about ethics in higher education journalism.
Not that I have ever belonged to a fraternity!
I’m just playing devil’s advocate here.
Snap judgements are bad, I’ll agree. I just think you’ve been arguing that the greek system couldn’t possibly have a bearing on the college experience even if the participants are well-behaved. Personally, I’m rather glad I went to a college without a greek system, because it generally encourages enclaves to form in the rest of the school, and often ends up perpetuating tribalism, which is very anti-humanist as far as I’m concerned. But I do recognize the benefits in some cases for the participants generally. As an Eagle Scout, I had the chance to join Tau Kappa Epsilon or Epsilon Tau Pi, but they seem kind of pointless when most of the point of being an Eagle Scout is good citizenship and service, rather than networking for personal gain and favoritism, which fraternities seem mostly to be.
I’d like some stats, and some studies to show whether frat systems on the whole are net positives or negatives to academics. I have the suspicion that they’re often much more of a distraction from academics than they are a boon to it.
ETA: oh, and Alpha Phi Omega. Which I’m very glad I didn’t get entangled with, seeing as it has a reputation for anti-homosexual rhetoric and conservative religious ideological discipline. The BSA is a mixed bag. I got a lot of value out of Scouting, but I actually gave up my Eagle badge in protest of their homophobic policies.
You could probably just change that to “Did you know that a number of young women start LIFE with this sort of ideal but end up dealing with sexual abuse and/or assault?” University is hardly the only place this takes place…in general the numbers adhere to larger societal average, afaik.
Which, as someone who just dropped his daughter off at school, is a source of great concern.
Just had this conversation with my child. She had really liked this one school she visited and was happy to find a good “backup school” that she would really enjoy going to. I happened to see it on a list of the top ten party schools and, though I hated to burst her bubble, I’d rather she knew the situation before she applied. She was arguing that she could just stay away from the party scene, but as a person who’d gone to #9 on the list, I knew it was pretty hard to avoid it. Plus, maybe you stay away from the party scene but your roommate might be wasted every night. A school that’s known as a party school will attract kids who want that in a school, and it’s not likely your non-partying kid will feel like she fits into the social scene.
I’m not sure what “larger cultural lens” you are viewing through, but it either needs cleaning, or has nothing to do with early-21st century America.
I’m sure there’s a simple thrill with just hanging the signs. But we’re also talking about a fraternity with a known propensity for violence – both sexual and otherwise. Yet you still want to say “oh, defend these poor boys from the consequences of their actions lest they learn something from experience.”
Well well well.
It’s interesting that your reaction is not to feel sad and/or angry that for half of the U.S. population picking a college isn’t as easy as looking at academic standings, because safety concerns get in the way.
What does it matter that the number one teacher of – say – bio chem or set theory is at your school, if your attacker is taking that class (and of course HE has a bright future and can’t possibly be the one to drop the class)?
If you actually had daughters, why would protecting Greek Life from the criticisms of strangers on the internet be more important than thinking about these issues seriously?
Can you elaborate? Thanks! (PM is fine.)
The larger cultural lens is the one where misogyny, violence and discrimination against women, etc. still permeate practically our entire culture. It has everything to do with early 21st century America - don’t confuse your own values with America’s at large.
Raising young men in this environment is an uphill battle. That’s it, full stop.
Anyway, thank you for your thoughts, I understand your position very well - in many ways I hold it myself, but it’s simply not sensitive enough to the realities of successfully changing an entire culture.
So here’s a crazy idea: why don’t we CHANGE that culture by creating consequences for the young men who practice misogyny, violence and discrimination against women? What hope have we of raising young men right if this kind of thing is dismissed as “boys will be boys” or “it’s not their fault, it’s the culture?”
“Misogyny, violence and discrimination against women is everywhere - this makes it very difficult for boys and men.”
Yeah. Totes unfair. Those poor boys and men. Surround by sexism and sexual violence on all sides. It must be hard for them.
FTFY.
Seriously, can you claim that raising socially responsible young men in this culture is measurably more difficult than raising confident, empowered young women?
There are many strategies I plan to employ while raising my son in 21st century California, but at their root they will largely boil down to Don’t Be A Rapey Fuckwad Or Society And I Will Kick Your Cracked Ass Straight Into Prison If Necessary.
I began, of course, with a more nuanced approach. So far, so good. He’s awfully good to his sister.
Totally read this as supporting misoginy, violence and discrimination.
UC Santa Cruz was my top pick in the early 90s, and a large part of it was the lack of sports / frats. Then I visited, and found that it really was the perfect school for me. I don’t know how it is now, because I graduated 20 years ago, but if out of state tuition is not a dealbreaker, it’s a good school. If I could afford to quit working to get a PhD in their History of Consciousness department, I totally would, but that’s a dream from another universe where I am rich. Go Banana Slugs.
It’s what happens when they’re run like any other corporation. Sports bring $ at the expense of the students.
Are you under the impression that the frat members were suspended?
If everyone did the same, “Greek life” would be very different indeed. In some ways, maybe even a little more Greek…if you know what I mean.
Out of curiosity, have they done enough that you would reclaim that badge now if they offered you the chance? If not, what more would it take?
They’d need to take the power of whether troops allow LGBT students can participate out of the hands of the sponsors and make it something that the troops have to allow.
As it stands, the rules are that troops “may allow” gay scouts and leadership, but only as long as the troop’s sponsor is okay with that. I’d much rather see the BSA have a spine and say something like “sponsors are warned that troops must allow participation by gay scouts and leadership”.
The discrimination is cowardly and irrational and needs to stop completely. The current steps the BSA have taken are generally in the right direction, but I’m not going to celebrate half-assed measures.
