Things change. My parents used to be pretty hostile to LGBT issues, primarily because they really did not understand anything about it. These days, it is completely different. Family members bring their partners or same sex spouses to family gatherings or on hunting trips, and everyone is welcomed and accepted. That does not mean that the old folks are going to encourage same-sex experimentation, or that they would not prefer that those family members were heterosexual. But being willing to accept the lgbt family members, and their partners and friends, is a pretty big step.
What made that happen is the plain fact that the LGBT relatives are decent, hard working, successful people. They teach by example.
if the conversation had started with statements similar to this art project, I don’t think we would be where we are now.
I really disagree here. I think that @anon73192581 has a good point about how individuals are inculcated into racial thinking in general.
No. Not smart, remember! 
Right. My point, this whole time.
Do we assume that LBGQT people can’t be racist? Maybe they initially wanted to speak to the racism they saw in their own community.[quote=“Kimmo, post:127, topic:90944”]
the right likes the war on drugs because it attacks predominantly coloured folks and lefties.
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Yep. Which I said.[quote=“LearnedCoward, post:143, topic:90944”]
I think this is another circlejerk.
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How so? the conversation here has been wide ranging and we’re expressing quite a bit of difference of opinion, aren’t we?
Um, in some settings, I suppose, but let’s not omit the fact that more generally, as with the race-based Civil Rights Movement, many LGBT people worked their asses off and risked their lives for such results.
You seem to have forgotten statements like, “We’re here, we’re queer, get used to it!” Not quite as strong as Dean Sutton’s statement, but in line with it.
You’re acting as human garbage with this “point”, Max.
By inferring that those LGBT persons who are bullied, hated, and rejected by family are indecent, lazy, worthless persons in their failure to convince.
Alongside “the only acceptable gays in society are those that reflect my very specific cultural values.”
I’m sure your relatives will not approve of you tokenizing them as “the good ones”.
But they don’t know what you truly think of them, because you’d never say anything so terrible to their face.
This shit was never given, it always had to be worked for. Blood and sweat and tears had to be spilled for just being treated as equal human beings.
What “example” did they set exactly? You seem to be unaware of the long history of LGBT rights and how difficult it was to attain them. It wasn’t until 2003 that sodomy laws were struck down nationwide, and they still remain on the books in some states, including Texas.
A lot of the changes occurred because people stood up to bigotry, although it’s still very prominent.
Good point. I don’t know if the LGBT community in South Africa is racist or not. I would assume it is, at least a little bit, but they would be more responsive to criticism than the average person. Also challenging the mainstream is what Pride is all about.
No. There is practically no diversity of opinion here, especially when it comes to race issues. There might be like three people here at the member level or above who don’t think white privilege is a thing, when the average fake moderate laughs at the idea of white privilege. Speaking out against racism here is preaching to the choir.
That is the dumbest thing I have heard all day.
And I’ve got a six-year-old that keeps blaming the baby for everything.
My sculpture is the distance between failquail and a rational argument.
Hahahahaha, hilarious! I haven’t seen that one in a donkey’s age! Well done! Very funny! Pitch perfect satire!
I’m not South African, so can’t say. I do know that the LBGQT community in the US is not free of racism, though. Racism isn’t just about being actively racist, it can also be about ignoring the struggle of individuals of color today or in the past[quote=“LearnedCoward, post:155, topic:90944”]
they would be more responsive to criticism than the average person
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Although there have been cases where people of one group completely ignores the struggles of others as “not real” because of their own struggles. White women do this all the time.
Really? Aren’t you ignoring people like @Max_Blancke or @Medievalist, who are often at odds with people like me or @anon15383236? Or for that matter, it’s pretty clear where @failquail diverge on this issue. Not accepting out and out racism (of the alt-reich variety) certainly isn’t being prejudice. If it is, I guess I’m a bigot, because I grew up around that, and I find it entirely unacceptable. I don’t feel bad about that and I don’t like being told I should feel bad.
One thing that is interesting about SA is that it’s incredibly progressive when it comes to LGBT rights. Whether or not the progressivism extends to racial relations within that community, I don’t know.
No, I am speaking about the dynamics in my own family. I watched my Dad’s views evolve, especially over the last decade, and it was a little unexpected, considering his views on the issue before.
I don’t see how this makes me “human garbage”.
What I meant by “decent” was honest, charitable, and polite. Those qualities, coupled with a strong work ethic, are pretty much what it takes to impress people like my parents. Anyone who exhibits those basic qualities will earn their respect. The LGBT family members I am talking about are not putting on an act to impress anyone, they are simply that kind of people.
It is not a rule that saying something positive about one group of people implies the opposite about everyone else.
Yes, implying that this is uncommon.
Reality indicates that it is not enough to be any and all of these characteristics.
In addition to what @anon61221983 just said about the diversity of opinion that does exist here, I’m glad that people who don’t think white privilege is a thing don’t find this discursive environment amenable to their nonsense. Just like I’m glad that people who think climate change doesn’t exist don’t stick around here much either, because I sure don’t want to spend time trying to navigate around reactionary commentary from people who deny the existence of such facts.
As for the idea of a “fake moderate”…
Someone whose political beliefs fall somewhere between Fox News and CNN, and who considers MSNBC to be far left. Someone who thinks climate change and evolution are open to debate, but thinks the War On Christmas is real. Someone who doesn’t believe in white privilege or political correctness. Someone who thinks “Democrats do this, Republicans do [far worse thing], let’s call it even” is a valid argument. Someone who thinks that Democrats and Republicans are the only two political options out there, has negative associations with the word “liberal”, and thinks social democracy, democratic socialism, socialism, communism, and Marxism are all the same thing and are all un-American. Someone who didn’t like to be challenged intellectually because it makes them uncomfortable.
In other words, someone far to the left of most of my immediate family.
I have known many such people, and they make up most of the US. But you probably think they’re mythical if you don’t live near them or associate with them. Around here, they’re actually the sensible ones, because they’re not frothing at the mouth overt racists. They can still be reached.
Will they be talking about this artwork? Not really. They will only be made uncomfortable, because everything makes them uncomfortable. I don’t care, and I actually think their discomfort is funny, but you can rule out reaching out to them.
There is no great national conversation, not about this or anything else. If there was, Trump never would have been elected president. Yet, not only was he elected, but his election blindsided most of us here on this board. There’s no great national conversation about anything serious, and nobody’s stepping outside their socioeconomic class or even their own little circle of friends to discuss anything of importance.
Ok, I see what you mean, thanks, basically “claims to be moderate but is actually conservative.”
nobody’s stepping outside their socioeconomic class or even their own little circle of friends to discuss anything of importance.
Speak for yourself, please.
I[quote=“Max_Blancke, post:161, topic:90944”]
I watched my Dad’s views evolve…[quote=“Max_Blancke, post:161, topic:90944”]
What I meant by “decent” was honest, charitable, and polite. Those qualities, coupled with a strong work ethic, are pretty much what it takes to impress people like my parents.
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So you’re offering an anecdotal and therefore unverifiable claim that the LGBT members of your family only earned acceptance by being “decent” and that outside factors, including legal and largely societal changes, had nothing to do with it.
And you’re offering that in defense of a larger idea that LGBT people generally have only made progress by being “decent”, because that was all it took to change things.
History is much more complicated than that which is the problem with your implication that oppressed minorities can improve their situation simply by behaving.
Well, surely you know how indecent those dirty-hippy protesters are. /s
