Member mockletoy anonymized at user request.
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User temp has been asked not to return after posting links to transphobic content and making it clear the point of their recent posts was to enable that same behaviour. We have zero tolerance for that here.
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Thank you
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User 'ZenEngineer` has been asked not to return.
Citing facts is a perfectly acceptable way to comment, and we donât require references, weâre not Quora or Wikipedia.
But when you are rebutted by no less than five other members who do cite facts, to then respond with more unverified information, along with a blanket statement that you do not intend to reciprocate, adds nothing to the conversation but to derail it.
However, when you then do this in a subject involving the global pandemic, this moves from being ârudeâ and ânot coolâ to straight up trolling. We have enough issues with truthiness on this subject already.
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Letâs be clear. This question is one that is designed to drive a wedge between the rights of transgender people and the rights of cis-gender women. The conclusion we are supposed to draw is that acceptance of transgender people into sports will ultimately mean that cis-gender women will no longer be competitive in sports and that womenâs sports will be taken over by transgender women, in particular women who transition, not from a sense of personal identity, but from motivation to win money and fame at sports. It is essentially a variation of the bathroom argument, saying that there are lots of otherwise cisgender men who would choose to exploit acceptance of transgender people for ends that have nothing to do with identity.
When Tamsin expresses her* unhappiness at this âline of questioningâ being brought up, she is completely justified. Rage would be justified. Reasoning along this line is the path of bigotry. The evidence for negative consequences of transgender people participating in any aspect of society is non-existent and based on conjecture and arguing this way is an attempt to preemptively deny rights to people who are struggling to even be acknowledged as human beings. If it were up to me, this thread would be locked and removed.
*If this isnât the right pronoun set, I apologize. I couldnât find a reference to it.
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Thank you for the support. I agree completely.
Incidentally, you are correct on my identity, and you have my thanks for taking that into account too.
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Iâm sorry, but this is happening right now in public discourse. Individuals right now are trying to decide what is, and isnât an issue when it comes to the rights of transgender individuals.
If the answer to this topic is âthis is a nonissue for reasonsâ, then great - your reply lays that out. But the idea that it canât even be discussed is, IMHO, a very dangerous precedent to set when these discussions are going to happen regardless of what we do or do not say here.
I suppose my point is, if not here, then where? Because if the answer is that the Boing Boing BBS is not a âsafe placeâ to have conversations that have important social ramifications, then why am I spending my time moderating here in the first place?
I have tried very hard to foster a community where we can discuss difficult topics with respect, and that happy mutants with experience, knowledge, or interest in certain topics can have conversations freely. If thatâs not the case, and that isnât what the BBS represents, then I question whether or not it should exist at all at this point.
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But we wouldnât allow a thread like that about people of color or LBG folks or cisgendered women. That thread doesnât seem to be in good faith, and takes itâs start from what seems to me to be a bigoted position about trans folks. Would we have a thread that was about how Black folks are more suited for sports?
Lots of us cisgendered folks are struggling for ways to understand the struggles of our trans bros and sisters, but too often weâre having these discussions around them rather than letting them lead it. I think we absolutely need to take them seriously when they say something is not taking their basic humanity into account as seems to be the case here. Questioning whether transwomen should be competing in sports against or alongside cisgendered women should be something that is seen as crossing a line.
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Iâll grant that the line between free expression of reasonable discourse and providing a platform for bigotry is a challenging one to see and I am not going to argue that you should change how you come down on that.
I also agree that an answer needs to be articulated for these questions. The answer to the question is that policies regarding the rights of transgender people should always acknowledge their humanity first and foremost and even going into this kind of reasoning seems to me to violate that.
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I disagree. We have had many topics about topics affecting LGB* rights, rights for other marginalized individuals, and what is being said about them in countless topics.
It sounds to me that your point is if a topic was started like âWhy are POC so dominant in certain professional sports?â or âWhy are womenâs olympic gymnastic categories different than male categories?â or âHow have asian stereotypes around mathematics affected their levels of employment in big tech?â That these would be inappropriate to even discuss because each one involves a marginalized class of people. Is this the point you are trying to make?
Genuinely I am failing to understand the nuance here, and this topic more than any other has me thinking very strongly about whether or not I am the correct individual to moderate the BBS at this point in time.
That being said, the purpose of this topic, and, IMHO, the mark of a thoughtful moderator is to solicit feedback, which is what I am attempting to do here. Especially because it appears the normal values, principles and experience I typically try to bring to bear in making moderation decisions here appear to be insufficient in this case.
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If there was a thread entitled âBlack Sportsâ that was allowed to stand, I know Iâd be livid.
Especially considering the source.
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The title was ill-chosen to be sure. But the question was rather specific in the post:
The debate about trans gender women competing in âwomen onlyâ sports that are massively dependent on strength and endurance over skill brings up some very serious issues to my previous understanding of this issue. I am curious of any input others might have on this.
What I am hearing is that this topic should not be allowed to be discussed here. Where my understanding is failing me is âwhyâ, other than that it has been a source of bigotry and prejudice elsewhere. My good-faith belief in this case was that the diverse set of individuals we have here, in conjunction with active moderation, might allow a respectful discussion of this topic instead of what we see in public, and given the BBSâs high ranks on search engines, perhaps provide a counterpoint to all the vitriol and negativity this topic normally creates in less heavily moderated forums by less-invested individuals. But I get the feeling now that I am incorrect in this assumption.
Zero chance that we are going to restrict topics to pre-approved individuals or groups here. I am not interested in moderating a forum where only certain individuals have the right to speak if they follow our guidelines.
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Intentionally so, IMO.
Thatâs not the issue, though.
Track records matter in this community; pun fully intended.
I wasnât suggesting that, either.
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What you are suggesting is that I have not banned users who deserve to be banned, something I will take to heart - that would make the third individual in this community who identifies as female tell me that I have failed to provide them with a safe environment in the last hour alone.
Thank you for that. That offers me perspective I apparently sorely needed.
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I feel like if I wanted to have a good faith discussion about trans athletes on this BBS I would privilege input from the trans women in this community or else I would not start the topic. I would gladly correct an offensive mistake if it was a mistake. But thatâs just me.
This isnât something I need to be protected from. Itâs simply part of the experience. All space is contested between people. But most people donât raise issues for no reason.
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No, Ken; Iâm really not. I think that generally you do the best job you can, given the difficult circumstances.
I think this is a major part of the issue - moderation is a huge burden that shouldnât fall on just one person.
It should not be solely your responsibility to maintain a safe space for women here (or for anyone else.)
The way I see it that duty should fall upon all of us collectively as a community, and I have felt for a while that you need a support team.
But alas, I know that weâre just getting by as it is, and such measures are unlikely.
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First, I appreciate how dedicated you are and the great job you do. Youâve done well by our community. Boingboing bbs would be a hot mess without your level-headed and patient moderation.
I think the original topic is problematic in tone and that this has only gotten worse. It is posed as âshould transgender people be allowed to participate in physical sportsâ instead of âhow do we integrate transgender people into gendered sports.â The topic seems less like the hypotheticals you listed and more like âshould we allow fat people to enroll in insurance.â There is an inherent body based judgment going on. Their inclusion is being posed as a problem. Add that to the fact the discussion is not being led or even very informed by transgendered people.
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One thing that seems to be assumed here, is that it is okay and in fact desirable to separate genders/sexes (Iâm not sure what the most appropriate way to characterize this is since itâs a sensitive topic Iâm not well versed on) in certain sports (but maybe not others) to make them more fair to the participants. So long as we agree that there should be a line and two categories, thereâs going to be a legitimate conversation to be had about how we draw that line that ensures the most fairness, and complete fairness is likely something that is impossible given the complexity of the issue, since gender/sex are not binary and there is a complex spectrum between the two ends. And I donât know what the answer is, but it does seem like something where many respectful people might have different ideas about how or where to draw that line dividing two divisions in various sports, or whether there should only be two categories.
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