Look the whole point of the LGBT rights movement is freedom of identity, and the freedom to express that identity. The point isn’t to carve out bits out of heteronormativity, and say this is okay, and that is okay.
My top post basically said, that while I have suspicions of motive, I will not argue, or question a persons right to their preferences.
Who are we to tell people what race they should, or shouldn’t date? Why do we get to have a say in that? Instead I’m getting argued in circles that people know what is the right way to be attracted to a person, and what’s not, and there for we should make a policy on that opinion. How is that okay?
Gay white cisgendered men can be bigoted and benefit from privilege. Saying that is not infringing on anyone else’s freedom. Refusing to acknowledge that and how it shapes services like grindr is indeed a problem.
People are not obligated to date anyone they don’t want to and no one said they have to date people they are not attracted to. however, if they can’t acknowledge their own ingrained prejudices from growing up and living in a white supremacist society shapes their sexual desires, then that is very much a problem. This is not a problem unique to gay cisgendered white men either. It’s a problem for white men across the board. And white women. Because it’s a systemic problem and we only solve those by understanding the root of them, and then trying to change our systems and move beyond them.
No one is telling gay men (of any race) who they can or can’t date.
But we’re talking about a person’s dating preferences. A person choosing not to date someone is not infringing on a person’s freedom. That’s what I have an issue with. We can’t say pry into people’s personal lives, and say they cannot have these preferences. They may have them for the wrong reasons, but it’s not for us to say.
That is not disconnected from society [ETA: correcting a wrong word]. our sexual preferences are shaped by society. It’s not the only factor, of course, but it’s A factor and it’s an important one that’s often ignored in our individualistic society, that needs to be addressed, understood, and changed, because it is part of systemic oppression.
I think it’s probably more dangerous to NOT address systemic racism, given that it literally kills people.
This is not about personal preference. It’s about systemic racism. One does not have to be attracted to particular people. But your sexual preference isn’t just shaped by your internal desires. Understanding and acknowledging that matters. Otherwise, we only perpetuate discrimination. This isn’t about you (or me, or anyone else) and who we might be attracted to. It’s about systems of oppression that need to be dismantled. You still get to choose who you are attracted to if we don’t have systemic racism.
I feel that’s really dangerous though. Why should society have an opinion on our sexual preferences? How can you say which is right, and which is wrong. For every right opinion, there’s a 100 exceptions. If we want to fight oppression, we need to do it by affirming rights. We need to support oppressed communities, and let them choose for themselves. Let them have the power to not need to integrate with white supremacy.
Why waste our time on dating apps, and race filters? Let’s do this right, what about reparations? Why not just make the black community whole. Guarantee employment for everyone, UBI for everyone else, and make sure black people are the first in line for support.
That’s my solution. We have no place architecting society to meet some ideal social image, and telling people who they can and can’t love. We do have the right to affirm freedoms.
I do apologize for jumping into this serious discussion with my usual silliness, but it would actually make my day if, when apply ethnicity filter, a popup appeared:
I hereby acknowledge that my ingrained prejudices, which have resulted from growing up and living in a white supremacist society, shape my sexual desires.
| Agree and apply filter | Continue without filter |
Because we live within a culture and need to change that too. Squaring the economic circle only gets us so far.
We do need to have a society where some people aren’t considered lesser than, and that’s a cultural issue. It goes right back to the structure and the superstructure that marx talked about. Gramsci is better on this though, when he argued that the ruling class rules partially via shaping the culture around us to gain proletariat buy in. You can change the economy, but you have to address the culture too and change the ideology in which you swim or else nothing is really different.
[ETA] Just a quick primer on Gramsci and his theory of hegemony:
We’re in this situation because we’ve denied justice to a class of people. If we acknowledge that as a society, and decide we’re going to make these people whole, and we’re going to make this right, the other issues in society will right themselves. If we work instead to affirm rights, then everything else comes from that. We can’t get to a just society, with out first setting people’s rights straight.
The way the left is doing it now, is taking the process backwards. We’re trying to get to a just society, with out first dealing with the injustice that got us here.
We’re far from there, though, precisely because white people refuse to look at our society and fix it. We’re not going to fix systemic racism by throwing cash at the problem only. Yes, reparations would help, but if we don’t dismantle systems of injustice in our culture, it will keep coming back. The past 200 years or more of American history should alert us to that.
I do highly recommend Gramsci on this. It’s about power and how that power is distributed in society.
Which we don’t get by ignoring how that injustice is constructed through institutions. We did that with policing, and look where we are right now.
@anon61221983 Then I do sincerely apologize for my tone. I assumed you where just another cis straight white women, butting into the LGBT community, which I have a lot of strong opinions about.
I read a lot of black history, I watch a lot of black socialist, and communist community leaders on youtube. Everything from your posts, sounded to me the same old left arguments, that the black people on youtube I watch complain about. I am not trying to speak for the black community, I was trying to point to what I have heard, and what I believe.
You’re doing a lot of assuming. Just because someone doesn’t scream their sexuality from the rooftops doesn’t mean you know it. The fact that you assume you do is a massive problem in and of itself. There’s a B in LGBTQ+, not to mention the Ace community.
And what makes you necessarily assume that I was talking about @anon61221983? That’s a lot of assumptions you just keep on making.
Dude… I am neither the transwoman nor the black woman.
I am just another cis straight white woman. So feel about me however you want. I don’t really care. I was not attacking you as an individual, because I don’t know you and have no interest in your or anyone else’s sex life. Pretty much EVERYTHING I said about privilege and white supremacy APPLIES TO ME, TOO. I’m aware of that, and do my best to think about that and correct my own internalized prejudices, because this shit matters, as we’re re-learning this week. I have to teach US and world history to often mostly students of color, and so I try my best to be cognizant of these complicated issues.
And because @anon59592690 and @Melizmatic matter to me, and I want them to be able to enjoy the same privileges that I do on a daily basis, just on the accident of my birth, I have tried to listen to them and others on these issues. My ideas about race and gender and sexual orientation were not something I just threw a fucking dart at to decide. I’ve read, studied, and listened to others on these issues. I don’t assume I know everything or that I get it all right, and I look to my sisters and brothers to call me out if I’m speaking out of turn. Lots of folks here will do that who have experienced forms of discrimination I’ve been lucky enough not to have to deal with.
But once again, saying that white gay cisgendered men have privileges is in no way taking away their freedom or their rights. It’s acknowledging that discrimination is a complicated beast that pits us all against each other so the ruling class can rule over all of us while we’re here fighting over scraps.
But once again. I hope you are safe and well. Please take care of yourself in this stressful time. I absolutely mean that.
