Though some were wise to create sites for the mock and ridicule of others; like Encyclopedia Dramatica and Kiwi Farms.
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Well, I wasn’t aware of that, but if so, it would mean that I was wrong to judge his reaction as being clueless. I often hear people who have no trouble functioning in society making that kind of claim, and the simple fact is, if you can just naturally function in society, it is precisely because you’ve absorbed a whole lot of social conditioning that you’re not aware of, and you’re operating based on that rather than thinking for yourself.
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This is certainly possible. Can you offer any tips on how to compute the precise probability?
I resemble that remark!
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Since you resemble that remark, I can’t really help you with computing the precise probability. You almost certainly know more about it than I do. For people who aren’t on the spectrum, I’d say that that probability is almost 100%, with the exceptions being people who are best described as bodhisattvas.
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Nor was I until recently.
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There’s a part to their web presence that’s really good on this sort of stuff.
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I like a lot of masculine expression just fine, and something that I’ve incorporated into my expression of masculinity is its security. I never let it rankle if someone demands the return of my “man card,” I view it as immature and don’t laugh and let them struggle with my indifference. Once I did that, my relationship with masculinity became a lot less toxic. My masculinity is peculiar to me, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
The effect of this attitude is that it does turn men into some strange childish creatures though. Especially younger men on a college campus. Occasionally I’ve heard them complain about women only being into jerks, etc. You can taste the bitterness and malcontentment in it. It kind of breaks my heart, and there isn’t a big enough status gap for me to level with them and tell them that’s not how life works.
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Amen. One thing that I’ve noticed alot about toxic masculinity is that it is externalized, and thus, fragile. They’re so afraid of “getting the man-card revoked” that they have to keep engaging in external displays of machismo in front of their peers (nearly all of who are going through the same crisis…). It’s really rather pathetic, and ironic.
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Those two factors are not unrelated. It’s a lot easier to reject masculine norms when you innately embody them.
For somewhat similar reasons, it’s quite common to find physically imposing guys who are extremely gentle and non-aggressive in manner. You don’t need a threatening front when you’ve got one built in.
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As a shortarse, I reject the idea of the Napoleon Complex.
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As does the historical record:
(5’6" over here, BTW)
OTOH, purely anecdotally, based on a youth spent amongst the inner-city underclass: there are occasions when an aggressive display is required for survival, and they do seem to occur more often for those of us of a less-imposing build.
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Well, yeah. But you’re Australian.
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So really that’s -5’6".
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I’ve never got the ‘women are only into jerks’ angle. Now, if one said, ‘people aren’t into needy sycophants’, I’d agree 
It took me a long, long time to come into my own masculinity. Feminism is good. Chopping wood is good. Sharing intimacy with consent is good. Blowing things up is good (safely). Nice clothes are good. Muscle cars are good. None of these things are mutually exclusive.
I occasionally rock a Ron Swanson avatar. I like that he is a blowhard, but radically in touch with his own weird feelings.
Don’t know where I’m going with this other than I feel really, really bad that people growing up think they have to be jerkballs to confirm their identity.
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I’m pretty sure autistic people internalise plenty of things from their culture, including ideas about gender. I see this both in my own experience, and also from reading sites for autistic people like Wrong Planet. The messages often seem to be received in a different way (and perhaps not as strongly), but you’re not isolated from them and there’s the same pressure from being exposed to different experiences or expectations as a man or woman. Specifically on the topic of this thread, I see a lot of comments from autistic men that make assumptions about gender dynamics approaching MRA territory - women are only into jerks / you can’t understand them / friendzoning etc. Basically results of finding it difficult to understand or negotiate relationships and attempts to develop theories to explain them. Bitterness about feeling left out mixed with entitlement etc. This part of toxic masculinity doesn’t seem to be absent at all, and in fact may be more pervasive. There are plenty of exceptions, but it’s there.
While I find it refreshing to see a forum with people who also view many social norms as arbitrary and things to be negotiated and possibly rejected, it doesn’t mean that this always happens in practice or that autistic people are as untouched by culture as they (we) would like to think.
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There’s your problem. Wrong Planet has become a toxic dumping ground. I would avoid it, because I do avoid it.
I knew WP’s founder, and that guy is a complete sociopath. Another reason for me to stay away.
MRAs prey on people who don’t really understand social dynamics, and offer solutions that make sense at first blush to guys who are good and pissed off and don’t have a whole lot of real world experience, but fall apart at closer inspection. “Women are only into jerks”. Jerk to you doesn’t mean a jerk to everybody. “Friendzone”. If you’re pretending to be a nice guy (see, “minimally decent human being”) just to get in a woman’s pants, that same woman would probably prefer someone who actually is a decent human being and doesn’t have to pretend.
This, this, and all of this. The needy sycophant thing reminds me of what some people call “Christian nice”. Like, when someone goes out of their way to be nice to you, they might be trying to proselytize to you. Growing up in the Midwestern US, I’ve learned this is often the case, and even when it isn’t the case, cloying niceness almost certainly means someone wants something, usually for nothing. It is really obvious, and really annoying.
I wouldn’t go as far to say I’m totally untouched by groupthink, but I tend to be very skeptical of it. Some of it is ingrained in me, but in trying to figure out how society functions, I have really had to examine a lot of stuff in my life and weed out the bullshit.
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Agreed, a lot of the attraction of toxic masculinity is this feeling that the only way out of the masculine status game is to “win” it. A 6’4" rock star isn’t immune, he’s just already “won.”
A few people have offered solutions like, don’t listen to other people! Escape society totally! Both of those are also just victory conditions of the toxic game: the asshole who doesn’t care about anyone else, or the survivalist who doesn’t need anyone else – except, often, as audience to his boasts of independence 
If there is a solution it must instead come from caring for each other and relying on each other.
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My point is not that it’s a great site or the only site for autistic people, just that autism and culture are related in different ways, even when it’s a common claim from autistic people that conventions should not just be accepted. There are other sites that are better, but I was specifically talking about one that seems to have a lot of MRA-style voices.
An attempt to codify human relationships aimed at people who feel excluded from them is probably going to find a lot of autistic people. Sometimes people reject one kind of groupthink and embrace another, especially if it approaches them as a person who is making social errors and who can learn skills rather than a “needy sycophant” or “entitled asshole”. Quite a few of these people were looking to connect with someone rather than dominate them or just get into their pants, until they swallowed the toxic message that this is what the dynamic is really about. It’s a shame that a lot of feminist critique of this serves to ridicule men by labelling them and attacking their sense of worth, since this in itself is embracing toxic masculinity and is counterproductive.
ETA: This does not describe my life. I feel sorry for these people not because I was once like them (I married really young), but because I can understand the thinking patterns that could lead someone in that direction.
The common understanding of how autistic people learn is that direct instruction is integral to comprehension. A lot of us are not so good with abstract concepts and figurative language. We are often concrete thinkers who benefit from step-by-step explanations. Guess who’s really good at offering young men step-by-step explanations on how to get a girlfriend?
Pick-up artists. They demystify a terrifying process. While social skills groups and parents go around the idea of dating and sexuality, PUAs jump right in and offer concrete steps on how to get exactly what you want. They give advice on appearance and approach, and offer praise for attempts at contact. They acknowledge that autistic young men are capable of and interested in being sexual with other people (in this instance, women) – validation few others in their lives are willing to consider.
So, yeah. Autistic young men who are interested in women are definitely at risk of embracing MRA philosophy, and of emulating misogynist pick-up artist practice. There. I said it. It’s out there. Now, what do we do about it? Simple answer, more complicated execution. The short answer is that we ensure that every young person has access to comprehensive sexuality education that’s based in respect, mutual pleasure, and consent. We humanize sexuality, and include the emotional parts of it in our conversations with youth. We acknowledge that sexual interest lies on a spectrum. We reinforce the idea that no person on this planet is owed sex by another person, for any reason.
(source)
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Reading my post again, I can see that while I wasn’t wrong, I also wasn’t yet right. In this case, not just the truth but the whole truth is necessary and your comment completes it. Homme might not care about culture’s notions of masculinity but he doesn’t have to.
Which now makes me wonder: why do some guys who also embody the ideals of masculinity nonetheless act and behave as if their ‘man card’ were at risk of being revoked?
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