Oh, ok. I see the issue now.
That’s the problem with saying “there’s obviously a problem with X” there’s always someone like me missing the point.
“You people” is pejorative, as you say. There is one accepted use of it: when you mean to be pejorative. Looking at the room full of her family, Karen exclaimed, “You people are insane. Y’all’ll be the death of me.”
4 Likes
The problem is that, in what used to be called the “King’s English,” the second person singular and plural are the exact same word; “You”. “Y’all” is also extremely useful for second-language learners, particularly Spanish-speakers, who already contend with tú, usted, ustedes and even vosotros, all being translated as “you”. Which I think is one reason why Texas double-downs on “y’all”. I don’t think the absurdity sinks in until one tries to teach English to non-English speakers. It’s downright embarrassing as a native English speaker.
1 Like
It’s embarrassing that not everyone speaks some perfect form of a language in a book? What living language does that in the first place? Each language has it’s regional idiosyncrasies that don’t line up with the “correct” form of the language. But you know what…
Such differences is what makes life more interesting and fun.
6 Likes
well, let’s talk about Italian in Google translate: “Me too” is: Anch’io, but “Me too!” is: Anche a me! Which illustrate how, while many other words can be confused, words that may be used in emotional exclamations are going to be especially troublesome. Y’all is good. No silent letters, easy to spell, it’s even logical: you+all. My background is New England and I habitually use “you guys”, but if we had an equivalent to the Académie Française, I’d be for pressure to make “y’all” official.
1 Like
Reminds me of how “good” democrats would rake dubya over the coals for pronouncing it, “nucular” instead of “nuclear”. And the counter example one consciousness objector put forth, was a relative of theirs that grew up and lived in the south, who happened to be a nuclear engineer employed at a reactor, and sure enough they pronounced it “nucular”.
…which pretty much clinched it for me-people are being shamed for where they come from, not for being stupid.
That’s pretty context dependent. Context matters.
1 Like
“We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.” ~ James Davis Nicoll
6 Likes
My mother’s family is from Quebec. They faced a lifetime of being told French, especially Quebec French, is inferior. I still run into Anglo Canadians telling me how Quebec is ruining their economy and blah, blah, blah. It’s NOT a world of “aren’t all languages and dialects beautiful”. Actually my attitude may come more from my Irish side and the stealing of that language, and that heritage being stolen from me. My only means revenge is to speak English better than most of those limey bastards ever could! Y’all!
2 Likes
2 Likes
Which is a stupid thing to say, because of course it’s not… It’s just as valid a language as any other.
Okay. Of course, Irish was nearly wiped out by English colonization, especially after the famine. And I suspect that the post-famine reconstruction by intellectual nationalists left out much of the nuance of the western peasantry’s daily usages (the impoverished people hit the hardest by the waves of death, as it was harder for them to leave). I’m quite happy that Irish (and other languages that the British and other various imperial powers tried to and in some cases are still trying to wipe out) has been resurrected and is currently taught back in the homeland, but I’m guessing that there was a great deal left out of the curriculum by the elites that are now entirely lost to history. I suspect, though, that people who learn it now in school tend to put their own local spin on it.
But my point was that language is living, evolving, and just because some people have decided something is “correct” and put it down in a book in order to teach it to others doesn’t make it the end all and be all. While the nationalists projects of attempting to standardize languages has in some cases saved some languages, they also leave a lot out, as they are top-down elitist projects more often than not. 
Standardizing languages has long been tied up with classist, racist, gendered, imperial considerations, and I think that should give us pause when assuming that something that seems “incorrect” based on the institutionalized version of a language.
6 Likes
Surely though you see the difference between prescriptivism for yourself and prescriptivist “correction” of others?
1 Like
Look to the literature of your native tongue to discover how authors solved this problem.
It was always a bit cringy to me when people did that. There was plenty of actual policy issues to critique before resorting to making fun of how he talked. I would always call out anyone who did that and never join in. Then again, I never was a Democrat.
Bush was from Connecticut and went to Harvard and Yale, and was the first president ever with an MBA. Bush Sr was from Massachusetts and went to Yale. It’s old money all the way down. Bush Jr’s whole Texas thing was an act, and not a very good one either.
8 Likes
At least when I was being taught Irish there was a definite emphasis on formal irish through poetry and literary criticism. There wasnt much exposure to local sources, although we were taught some of the ‘nuances’ of the differences between the gaeltachts in Donegal, Connemara and Kerry (for example). But the differences were usually in the context of “check out how the culchies in Connemara say this!”
5 Likes
The whole reason he bought a “ranch” in West Texas during his presidency was that his handlers wanted photo-ops of him riding a horse, like Reagan—but W didn’t like horses and he wouldn’t do it. He still went there every August to “clear brush,” definitely a valuable use of a president’s time.
10 Likes
Between W’s brush-clearing and Trump’s golfing, those two probably spent almost as many days on vacation as they did on the job. But Obama was the lazy one. (Nope, not racist at all.)
10 Likes
they found the word “feckless” in a thesaurus and figured that made it less racist
1 Like
Oh no…
you = 1 person
y’all = 2-3 people
all y’all = >3 people.
It’s simple math!!
But for those who struggle, there is always Pitttsburgh-ese “yinz.” This is a straight up second person plural, no math involved.
7 Likes
This statement goes along with a truism that I have seen play out pretty often. It’s usually easy to pick out ESL folks even if they speak English very well, because they speak it too perfectly. Native speakers (I think in most languages) are very sloppy with rules and understand that slop. I tried to learn Haitian Creole for a mission trip one time. Holy shit, if you don’t grow up speaking it, it’s damn near impossible. I lost count of how many times I heard “The meaning of this phrase depends on the intent of the speaker.” Yeah, try speaking perfect English sometime. No one will understand you, not because you are incomprehensible, but because they are laughing too hard!
6 Likes
