How can women disrupt male speech domination?

Women could disrupt male speech domination by democratically taking control over title to most of the land and industry in the world.

That’s roughly the original socialist feminist program and could be pursued by democratic socialist campaigns for local, state and federal offices. The Sanders campaign shows there are constituencies in waiting.

It sounds more practical than the cultural feminist efforts to convince men to stop displacing women’s voices with patriarchical narratives.
As this thread has sometimes demonstrated, men may not understand or care why the issue is meaningful.

And even when men do see an issue and act as allies, women still don’t have close to equitable political representation or a comparable amount of income-producing economic assets.

And more equitable systems providing care to children and other dependents still aren’t likely to be integrated into the economy without further reaching economic and institutional changes.

So I’m just sayin’ . . . socialist feminsim.

8 Likes

Empathy is a very valuable skill, but tons of people manage to get very far in the world without much of it.

So they must be doing it on purpose? People keep smoking when they want to quit. Most people, when told their behaviour is painful or troublesome for others, seem to double down on that behaviour. I guess that can seem like being intentionally spiteful, I don’t know if that’s a useful characterization. Like I said, if you know you aren’t able to read unspoken messages, maybe you should be especially skeptical of ones you seem to read that fit a narrative you’d like to believe.

Honestly, I don’t know, should they? Who is the arbiter of who is worthy of trying to express themselves?

Of course people discriminate against those who aren’t neurotypical. This thread, if you’ll recall, is about how a lot of women have the experience of having men communicate in ways that excludes women. The problem of people communicating in ways that exclude the non-neurotypical is a similar problem, and its certainly one worth discussing, and I think that some of the ways people have talked about how to run good meetings in this thread would probably help with both. But if you are asking why you can’t force other people to stop being jerks, that’s the whole point of this thread, and not a lot of answers have been found.

And women have lots of positive experiences communicating with men. It’s not a question of coming up with the one true method of communicating to get there, it’s usually a question of dealing with people who are willing to make an effort.

10 Likes

Clare Malone:


More women vote than men, that’s for sure. According to our friends over at Rutgers Center for American Women and Politics, American women have cast between 4 and 7 million more votes than men in the last couple of presidential elections.

3 Likes

And, to bring this back to the original topic, men keep talking over, ignoring, and otherwise disrespecting women who try to make themselves heard, even when repeatedly asked and begged not to.

The feeling I get from the thread is that there’s a general concurrence that this is not, for the most part, a deliberate action by the men in question. It’s largely a bad habit, and the discussion (as see it) is about how to break that habit (or, better yet prevent it from being ingrained in the first place).

Women are asking for equal treatment, and they’ve been making limited progress for decades. You’re asking for preferential treatment - for people to change the way that they conduct conversations when you are around, to facilitate your understanding of the subtext. If people are just as set in their habits when it comes to talking with you as when it comes to talking with women, I’m sorry to say that it looks like you’re going to have to keep living with the frustration of trying to interpret non-verbal communication.

If, as the saying goes, 99% of the information transferred in a conversation is transmitted non-verbally, you’re pretty much asking people to slow down their communication to 1/100 speed so that you can keep up. Personally, I think that the “99%” figure is way too high, but it would still be a remarkable slowdown to include all of the non-verbal information while conversing.

As a comparison, think of a very technical, complicated thing that you do in your job. Think of how you would explain it to another engineer. And then compare that to how you would explain it to a layperson, [using only the thousand most common English words] (https://xkcd.com/simplewriter). By asking everyone to explain everything going on non-verbally, that’s what you’re asking them to do: take something that is intuitive to them, and explain it clumsily in words that don’t quite fit.

I’ve tried typing in the Simple Writer, and I always end up with words outside of the 1000 most common, not because I’m not cognizant of the limitation being imposed, or because I’m not trying to meet those limitations, but because I’m in the habit of using words like “cognizant.”

There’s a saying that you should never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence; similarly, I think that you should be wary of attributing people’s speech patterns to a conscious decision not to accommodate you, instead of neglecting to break out of their long-ingrained habits. Especially if, as you say, you have a hard time with subtext.

12 Likes

I think it would be very interesting to see how this conversation would work out if we were all in a physical room together. The BBS style has the advantage of not allowing people to interrupt each other.

It sounds to me like both @shaddack and the women in this thread are asking for treatment that allows them to participate on an equal level, which may well need to include changes to the way people have discussions. As you point out, he would need to make a number of adjustments too. Proper communication requires us to be aware of these differences in understanding and ability to contribute and to use a style that allows us all to participate.

While I acknowledge that “privilege” can be a trigger word,

I want to get work done

Does not address the issue of some men talking over women or flat out dismissing and ignoring them since I’m sure there are men who ignore women because they believe women can’t contribute anything of value. They may believe stopping to listen hinders the work that needs doing.

That projects and products somehow get rolled out only reinforces the idea that they have acted correctly.

My best guess is that this is a management issue. It is literally impossible for all companies to only hire progressive thinking people because the workforce pool is made up exclusively of flawed humans.

If a company does not address this issue directly then humans will human and we’ll only see things get better as they’re addressed at a societal level. As in people spending their free time discussing it on online forums.

If team leaders/managers/CEO’s actually care about making sure that all participants in a team get heard they’ll find a way (even if imperfect) to do this. But I suspect that for a lot of people things are good enough as they are so why rock the boat?

4 Likes

I’m sorry, not quite the least unfriendly person to women.

Although he would have probably put it “I am the best at being friendly to women”.

2 Likes

Anyone consider that it might bring more value to the men to listen to women instead of speaking? This isn’t just about what is best for us. It’s about what’s better for us all. It’s better for us all if we sometimes listen to each other and sometimes make ourselves heard. Men dominating the conversation hurts MEN as much as it hurts women.

14 Likes

I am so beyond exhausted.
Women need to pick our words so carefully. Don’t be insulting. Don’t use triggers like privilege. Don’t generalize (#notallmen). Don’t be shrill or strident or negative. But for God’s sake always make space for the angry sexist who thinks women are boring and stupid and mean, because that voice is just as valid as yours and if you don’t listen to that voice then you’re just as bad as the men you’re complaining about!

Seriously so so so tired.

Also it’s trite and a slogan but it’s true; patriarchy hurts men, too.

20 Likes

not that easy. I like to listen and think of myself as a good listener (no idea if true). but sooner or later I’m (more or less vehement) invited to lead the conversation myself* - something I’m not very comfortable with, “talk about yourself, I will not interrupt” is a Feared Sentence.

probably I simply don’t like humans :slight_smile:

* side note: if I write mys the next letter is ALL THE TIME a q. my fingers are faster than my brain.

4 Likes

You can tell because of all the butthurt bedwetters that get up in every thread like this.

1 Like

@Shaddack,

Do you think that a separate thread might be a better place to discuss how workplaces can be more autistic-spectrum-friendly (I presume that’s what you’re talking about)? Because while that is probably a valid discussion, I think that in the context of this thread it is a massive

18 Likes

The problem is not women saying it… it’s some men NOT LISTENING… Literally talking over women when they talk. That is the problem.

10 Likes

silly, the rest of us are dead weight. Engineers are a race of supermen who will make all things work and make sure the rest of us are serving them… duh! /s

7 Likes

Yeah… no. it honestly wouldn’t. There is no easy fix. The only way out is through.

3 Likes

I liked this comment up to this point. :slight_smile: Except I don’t need anyone to serve me, I’d actively dislike that idea.

I think I should have used that thing you left up there.
(or maybe I deliberately left it off to see what would happen?)

1 Like

Sorry! I just spent 2 and a half days with a bunch of teenagers, walking up hills! I’m not my normal sharp self! :wink:

5 Likes

They talk over everybody. That seems to be gender-neutral.

Well, who built the civilization as we know it? The power grid, the water and gas mains, the sewers, the buildings, the advanced materials, the factories for their production,? Who drafted the plans, put them to realization, erected the structures, smelted the metals, laid the cables and calculated their dimensions before? Who designed and built the ships, the cars, the aircraft, the space tech, the medical equipment?

Without all the different forms of engineers, we’d be still up on trees and haggling over bananas.

That’s what the Enlightenment was known for, no doubt…civil engineering.

6 Likes

Who made the clothes? Bore the children? Baked the bread? Taught the language and social interaction skills that allowed the engineers to work together in a group without beaning each other with clubs?

3 guesses - the first two don’t count.

HINT: The answer to your questions is a non-gender-specific career; the answer to my questions is a gender.

Only an engineer thinks it takes an engineer to jump down from a tree.

16 Likes